 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest
|
 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:14 pm Post subject: Dresden |
 |
|
Pat,
You were quite right to butt in. Your first hand experience adds insight.
It's terrible that we upset the "cultured people" all over Europe. Those Europeans should have raises their concerns about "wartime culture" with the Nazis.
I love Germany, but personally, I'm glad we have to option to speak, or not speak, German.
We owe the allies who fought and won that war an enormous debt.
Stan Sutterfield
| Quote: | The destruction of the city provoked unease in intellectual circles in
Britain. According to Max Hastings (a renowned British historian), by
February 1945, attacks upon German cities had become largely irrelevant to
the outcome of the war and the name of Dresden possessed a resonance for
cultured people all over Europe ?" "the home of so much charm and beauty, a
refuge for Trollope's heroines, a landmark of the Grand Tour." He argues
that the bombing of Dresden was the first time Allied populations questioned
the military actions used to defeat the Nazis...
Hi,
as a lurker on the Rocket list ( just interest as I fly a microlight) I am
loth to post this but I just cannot let a discussion of Dresden pass by
without comment.
Being 81 I lived through the war ( and got bombed out) and perhaps have a
different viewpoint than those `second guessers` born later who have had the
luxury of hindsight when evaluating what should and should not have been
done.
Max Hastings is of course right when he says that there was `unease` in
intellectual circles. There was unease after we bombed Hiroshima and
Nagasaki but this was a problem which had to be solved IMMEDIATELY. The
decision would not wait for the luxury of intellectual discussion. There was
a war on, decisions had to be made NOW. The Germans and the Japs were still
fighting, they were not giving up. We had them on the back foot certainly
but that is the time to attack, not ease off. There was no `unease` among
the men who had to go in and die on the ground in Germany or storming the
beaches of the Japanese homeland. They all said `Serve the bastards right,
they started it`
There seems to be the idea that Dresden was sitting there making Dresden
porcelain figures. Were they hell. Any more than Bath or Coventry were.Bath
was stuffed to the gills with Admiralty Planning Departments and you
couldn`t throw a stone in Coventry without hitting an engineering works.
They were all `legitimate` targets.
Remember too that this was the end of the war and we had brought bombing to
a pretty fine art. We had a lot of practice and lost a lot of Bomber Command
and the American Airforce refining the problem. If Germany had been as
expert in bombing in the early part of the war as we were then do you think
that she would have worried about Bath, Bristol, Coventry, Plymouth, London
having `cultural resonance`. Of course not. They did their best to wipe out
those cities, it is just that ,like us at that time, they were not very good
at it.
Poor old `Bomber` Harris got a lot of stick just for carrying out his
orders. He was denied the rewards which were handed out to the commanders of
every other arm of the Services. His men ,who died in their thousands, were
denied a Campaign Medal even. Suddenly, when the need for them had passed
everyone became holier than thou` and began to voice doubts about the
bombing campaign, and decrying the efficacy of the results.
Sorry to but in
Pat
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Rocket-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:27 am Post subject: Dresden |
|
|
You were quite right to butt in.>>
Thanks Stan. Nice to have someone agree with me . I seem to find myself more and more in disagreement with those around me (not my contemporaries) these days.
Just to up my flying credentials a bit. Although I do fly a microlight, I have a Jabi. 2200 in the power department.
Cheers
Good flying
Pat
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Rocket-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:53 am Post subject: Dresden |
|
|
Thank you for that reality-check, Pat, perhaps more relevant with the anniversary of 9/11 than at any other time.
As it goes with generations, the pain and immediate horror of war fade over time and the intellectual discourse starts glossing over the realities of the time, which spawned those horrible, not-always-appreciated decisions. Only when another war looms on the horizon and some folks are brought before choices that spawn tough decision all over again, do we get to reflect with some semblance of realization on what folks got done back then.
If we look at new military technology, it is very clear that the U.S. has become the leader in developing warring systems that minimize collateral losses -- both human and property -- in a conflict, which is what we will have in the future as opposed to full blown wars. You already saw that happen in the span of those six terrible years ending in 1945.
The Iraq war has shown to what extent military targets can be selected and destroyed with the precision only dreamt of in '45. But even back then the U.S. has already demonstrated that just going out to break more things and kill more people than one's enemy is not the way to go. It is much more productive to break only the enemy's war machines and kill its combatants. Razing museums and killing civilians hoping that the enemy will feel the pain and stop fighting only works if the enemy fears losing its civilians and its cities. The A-bombs on Japan were, hopefully, the last demonstration of that military strategy, necessary as it was to end the war.
With today's technology such a scenario is unlikely to occur again since arm-chair pilots sitting in lounge-like settings flying pilotless drones can go in and stop any scenario that might develop into a kill-civilians initiative.
Without the hindsight of history, as you pointed out, Pat, some might fuzzy-over the reasons for spending the money to develop smart weapons preventing a world conflict rather than winning one.
That is, provided the enemy's psyche remains in the four corners of what we understand enemies to be. With the resurrection of 6th century thinking, cultures and warfare, our neighbor and fellow American has become our enemy and our neighborhoods have become our battlefields.
These are people who swore allegiance to a mythical figure represented by remotely located clerics who have indoctrinated their people to consider the pain of civilian-killings and museum-razing as passports to pie-in-the-sky rewards for being killed.
So, the more bombs thrown on civilians the greater their victory becomes. The more of their buildings razed the greater are our losses. The paradigm of killing and destroying military targets on enemy territory still holds true, but the location of those enemy-assets has shifted from their turf to ours. If we hit an enemy combatant, we have killed a fellow American. If we destroy a military target, we have hit a place of worship that is under the protection of the U.S. Constitution.
Just as age brings new ailments to the fore for you and me, so it has done to our country. We contract diseases as we get older that were latent in our DNA and dormant during our youth just as America now suffers from diseases to which the Constitution offers no cure. Mostly because the Founding Fathers could never have imagined the challenges that we face today, such as snake-oil salesmen who can dematerialize and transmit themselves in real time into millions of people's homes at the same instant, assemble themselves again and speak to the nation eye-to-eye in their living rooms. Television, for example.
We allowed the enemy into our country when their only distinction was that they were foreigners. And now those powers that keep us safe also prevent us from solving the problem. It won't be resolved with drones hitting military targets elsewhere. If we don't find a solution soon, it will be our blood that will flow on our beaches because we will be forced to shoot at our people to protect our liberties.
How's that for bad options on the horizon of choices that will require a decision sooner rather than later.
Our very own Hiroshima moment.
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:11 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Dresden
Pat,
You were quite right to butt in. Your first hand experience adds insight.
It's terrible that we upset the "cultured people" all over Europe. Those Europeans should have raises their concerns about "wartime culture" with the Nazis.
I love Germany, but personally, I'm glad we have to option to speak, or not speak, German.
We owe the allies who fought and won that war an enormous debt.
Stan Sutterfield
| Quote: |
The destruction of the city provoked unease in intellectual circles in
Britain. According to Max Hastings (a renowned British historian), by
February 1945, attacks upon German cities had become largely irrelevant to
the outcome of the war and the name of Dresden possessed a resonance for
cultured people all over Europe ?" "the home of so much charm and beauty, a
refuge for Trollope's heroines, a landmark of the Grand Tour." He argues
that the bombing of Dresden was the first time Allied populations questioned
the military actions used to defeat the Nazis...
Hi,
as a lurker on the Rocket list ( just interest as I fly a microlight) I am
loth to post this but I just cannot let a discussion of Dresden pass by
without comment.
Being 81 I lived through the war ( and got bombed out) and perhaps have a
different viewpoint than those `second guessers` born later who have had the
luxury of hindsight when evaluating what should and should not have been
done.
Max Hastings is of course right when he says that there was `unease` in
intellectual circles. There was unease after we bombed Hiroshima and
Nagasaki but this was a problem which had to be solved IMMEDIATELY. The
decision would not wait for the luxury of intellectual discussion. There was
a war on, decisions had to be made NOW. The Germans and the Japs were still
fighting, they were not giving up. We had them on the back foot certainly
but that is the time to attack, not ease off. There was no `unease` among
the men who had to go in and die on the ground in Germany or storming the
beaches of the Japanese homeland. They all said `Serve the bastards right,
they started it`
There seems to be the idea that Dresden was sitting there making Dresden
porcelain figures. Were they hell. Any more than Bath or Coventry were.Bath
was stuffed to the gills with Admiralty Planning Departments and you
couldn`t throw a stone in Coventry without hitting an engineering works.
They were all `legitimate` targets.
Remember too that this was the end of the war and we had brought bombing to
a pretty fine art. We had a lot of practice and lost a lot of Bomber Command
and the American Airforce refining the problem. If Germany had been as
expert in bombing in the early part of the war as we were then do you think
that she would have worried about Bath, Bristol, Coventry, Plymouth, London
having `cultural resonance`. Of course not. They did their best to wipe out
those cities, it is just that ,like us at that time, they were not very good
at it.
Poor old `Bomber` Harris got a lot of stick just for carrying out his
orders. He was denied the rewards which were handed out to the commanders of
every other arm of the Services. His men ,who died in their thousands, were
denied a Campaign Medal even. Suddenly, when the need for them had passed
everyone became holier than thou` and began to voice doubts about the
bombing campaign, and decrying the efficacy of the results.
Sorry to but in
Pat http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Rocket-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:56 am Post subject: Dresden |
|
|
<<Thank you for that reality-check, Pat, perhaps more relevant with the anniversary of 9/11 than at any other time. >><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Thanks for the replies that my intervention has provoked. I would rather have kept this off list but there was no private return address.
Delighted to continue anydiscussion that you like off list
Cheers
Pat
<<Razing museums and killing civilians hoping that the enemy will feel the pain and stop fighting only works if the enemy fears losing its civilians and its cities.>>
I don`t think that anyone, even in 1940, wanted to waste bombs on `museums and civilians`. They got hit because the average bomb aimer couldn`t put a bomb within 5 miles of his target.
<<With today's technology such a scenario is unlikely to occur again since arm-chair pilots sitting in lounge-like settings flying pilotless drones can go in.>>
Thats what they said in 1940. " the B-17 box formation was impregnable". Until the Me 109`s drove head on straight through the formation, broke it up and then picked off the individuals.
"The Norden bombsight will enable us to put a bomb in a barrel from 20,000 ft" This was a bit later on when the Norden sight was introduced but it couldn`t do anything like that in combat conditions. In any case the lead bomb aimer ran the sight and everyone else, spread over 10 miles of sky pickled their bombs when they saw his drop and spread their bombs over ten miles of territory..
<<These are people who swore allegiance to a mythical figure represented by remotely located clerics who have indoctrinated their people to consider the pain of civilian-killings and museum-razing as passports to pie-in-the-sky rewards for being killed.>>
You mean like being taught that there is a God by your local pastor and hoping to go to Heaven when you die? Maybe your local cleric wasn`t so specific about the availability of virgins but the message is pretty much the same. All armies fight in the belief that God is on their side. You have `In God we Trust` The Germans have `Gott mit Uns` on their belt buckles. The `Christian` Crusaders from Britain, France, Germany who, after the seige stood the entire population of Acre, men women and children, in line and killed them all by mace or sword or axe or dagger. It took two days. They all had The Holy Cross emblazoned on their surcoats and banners to `legalise` their actions.
<< such as snake-oil salesmen who can dematerialize and transmit themselves in real time into millions of people's homes at the same instant, assemble themselves again and speak to the nation eye-to-eye in their living rooms. Television, for example>>
Like that Koran burning pastor down in Gainesville for instance.
<<We allowed the enemy into our country when their only distinction was that they were foreigners. And now those powers that keep us safe also prevent us from solving the problem. >>
Dont forget the very extensive pro nazi faction alread in many countries (including the UK) in the 1930.`s. There were many solid citizens, not of foreign antecedents, in both our countries who thought Hitler was the best thing since sliced bread. Many of them changed their minds when the bombs began to fall and yours changed after Ed Murrow. We still interned, in terrible conditions, many loyal people with blameless records just because they had German names or Austrian grandparents. Once that paranoia gets loose where does it stop? Remember the Macarthy witch hunts. Lives ruined for the slimmest, or no reason.
<<It won't be resolved with drones hitting military targets elsewhere. . How's that for bad options on the horizon of choices that will require a decision sooner rather than later. >>
Pretty miserable outlook isn`t it? In the meantime, the sun is shining, there is a blue sky with scattered Cu. at 4000ft. I think I will get the plane out.
Cheers
Pat
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:11 PM
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Rocket-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
