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Shielded wiring

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AZFlyer

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:20 am Post subject: Shielded wiring

List,



As I am major wiring challenged, I'm reading all the "experts" on getting my 3300 wired.  There seems to be one school of thought on "Shielded wiring" that says..." ground both ends" and another school says only "ground the source end."    or risk a Ground Loop (whatever that is?)



source:  Bingelis, Greg Richter, AeroElectric



I haven't located that book " Wiring for Dummies"  so, any help would be appreciated...



Thanks,

Mike

_________________
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon

Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:49 pm Post subject: Shielded wiring

Mike:



Here are the RULES for Grounds and Shielding:

1 - GROUNDS - You can't inspect a ground by looking at it... YOU HAVE TO REMOVE IT... And while it is off clean CLEAN the contacts and replace the star washers..

 2 - GROUNDS - The more the merrier.  It took a LONG time but even Bob Nicholes FINALLY caught on and NOW SELLS multi ground point blocks.  I use to frequent his web site/email list and pounded my case for about a year.  But old wives tails die hard.

 3 - GROUNDS - Ground Loops do NOT occur at DC.  They are a High Frequency occurrence - High Frequency is in the RF Range (RF = Radio Frequency - Transmittable Frequencies)(Not Audio Frequencies... AF).  AND I still have a challenge out that NO ONE has met.  MAKE ME A GROUND LOOP DC CIRCUIT!

 4 - SHIELDING - Or in this case: What End of a Shield To Ground?  

RF circuits you shield at BOTH ENDS. And lets consider RF as only the frequencies we see in out planes... VHF.

I know, I know, we all have GPS and they are at microwave frequencies.  BUT!  You are not building the units or the antennas, just installing them.

 5 - SHIELDING - When you consider things such as Alternator Noise... The noise is in the audio frequency range and the source is the alternator so you ground at the source/alternator.

NOW!  What happens went the alternator wires reach the ACU/VR (Alternator Control Unit/Voltage Regulator) and then go out  to other locations (ALT Switch)?  Well there the rule stating says ground the source, but what is the source?

 The ACU/VR is the source, But it is already Grounded, usually to the firewall. SOooooo what do you do with the SHIELD?

You play Electrical Engineer... Not on TV but on your plane.  Start with grounding at the ACU/VR.

 But, think ahead and plan ahead.  Make a Ground point at the ALT Switch and put a ring lug on the shield.  If you find ALT Noise try grounding at the ground point you made with the shield near (as close as possible) the ALT Switch.

 



It is a GOOD idea to make Ring Lug Grounds on both ends of the shield just in case the noise did not go to the same school as the electrons.  YET!  In all honesty I have never found that to be the case.

 



6 - Don't forget to install a Capacitor on the OUTPUT of the Alternator B+.  All the shielding in the world won't do dittily if the noise is traveling out and down your B+.

 



Barry





On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 3:20 PM, AZFlyer <millrML(at)aol.com (millrML(at)aol.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" <millrML(at)AOL.com>

 

 List,

 

 As I am major wiring challenged, I'm reading all the "experts" on getting my 3300 wired.  There seems to be one school of thought on "Shielded wiring" that says..." ground both ends" and another school says only "ground the source end."    or risk a Ground Loop (whatever that is?)

  

 source:  Bingelis, Greg Richter, AeroElectric

 

 I haven't located that book " Wiring for Dummies"  so, any help would be appreciated...

 

 Thanks,

 Mike

 

 --------

 Mike Miller (at) millrml(at)aol.com (millrml(at)aol.com)

 601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon

 

 Remember,  &quot;the second mouse gets the cheese&quot;!

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312943#312943

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

vvkidd(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:57 am Post subject: Shielded wiring

Try this.



Victor Kidd

Charleston, WV, CRW

N922VK

--

Aircraft_Wiring_for_Dummies.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Aircraft_Wiring_for_Dummies.pdf

Filesize:

2.11 MB

Downloaded:

537 Time(s)

AZFlyer

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Shielded wiring

Victor,



Thanks...already have that reference.



Mike

_________________
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon

Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!

jloram

Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Location: United States

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:56 am Post subject: Shielded wiring

A later version is here: 



http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/0903_aircraft_wiring.pdf



-john-

- 



[quote] --

buells2t

Joined: 11 Sep 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:36 pm Post subject: Shielded wiring

Thanks Victor & John,I'm a long ways from doing much wiring but sure these pdfs will be helpful when I get there.

Thanks again,

Mike

-- 

Mike Daniels,

 

Twitter: Mike_Flys

Mytransponder: MJD

Podcast: http://www.milehighflyers.com

My airplane build site: http://www.mykitlog.com/buells2t/

 YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/buells2t

http://mike-daniels.blogspot.com

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 10:54 AM, John Loram <johnl(at)loram.org (johnl(at)loram.org)> wrote:

 [quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org (johnl(at)loram.org)>

  

 A later version is here:

 

 http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/0903_aircraft_wiring.pdf

 

 -john-

 -

 

 > --

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: Shielded wiring

Grounding at both ends turns the shielded wire into a capacitive inductor.

Grounding at one end only, usually the end which is closest to the source of

the power.  Grounding at one end allows spikes and RFI to be sent to ground

efficiently.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: Shielded wiring

#1 most important.  To emphasize what Barry has written even if you take it off it may still look clean but may not be.  So be sure to clean it vigorously.  One thing though if you have to clean aluminium don’t use steel wool, aluminium oxide paper is safe to clean aluminium.  Shards of steel or iron will imbed itself into aluminium and cause corrosion in the aluminium.  

#2 Full agreement if in doubt ground it out!  

#3 Again full agreement but the shielding is to protect from outside interference.  

#4 The only RF circuits that should be grounded at both ends are Coaxial connections.  Of course coax is used almost entirely for RF transmissions.  Again the ground braid needs to be clean!  

#5 Again I’m in total agreement with Barry but...  Sometimes alternator squeal will penetrate the front end of your radios.  In that case you will need a choke on the input to the radio to filter out the squeal.  A choke is a circuit that comprises a capacitor and a coil of wire.  The good news is they are readily available at auto parts shops.  

   

Not often I agree with everything a person says but this is really one of the exceptions that makes the rule... Well written Barry.  

   

Noel    

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: September 19, 2010 9:17 PM

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Shielded wiring  

  

   

Mike:    

   

    

Here are the RULES for Grounds and Shielding:  

    

1 - GROUNDS - You can't inspect a ground by looking at it... YOU HAVE TO REMOVE IT... And while it is off clean CLEAN the contacts and replace the star washers..  

    

2 - GROUNDS - The more the merrier.  It took a LONG time but even Bob Nicholes FINALLY caught on and NOW SELLS multi ground point blocks.  I use to frequent his web site/email list and pounded my case for about a year.  But old wives tails die hard.  

    

3 - GROUNDS - Ground Loops do NOT occur at DC.  They are a High Frequency occurrence - High Frequency is in the RF Range (RF = Radio Frequency - Transmittable Frequencies)(Not Audio Frequencies... AF).  AND I still have a challenge out that NO ONE has met.  MAKE ME A GROUND LOOP DC CIRCUIT!  

    

4 - SHIELDING - Or in this case: What End of a Shield To Ground?    

    

RF circuits you shield at BOTH ENDS. And lets consider RF as only the frequencies we see in out planes... VHF.  

    

I know, I know, we all have GPS and they are at microwave frequencies.  BUT!  You are not building the units or the antennas, just installing them.  

    

5 - SHIELDING - When you consider things such as Alternator Noise... The noise is in the audio frequency range and the source is the alternator so you ground at the source/alternator.  

    

NOW!  What happens went the alternator wires reach the ACU/VR (Alternator Control Unit/Voltage Regulator) and then go out  to other locations (ALT Switch)?  Well there the rule stating says ground the source, but what is the source?  

    

The ACU/VR is the source, But it is already Grounded, usually to the firewall. SOooooo what do you do with the SHIELD?  

    

You play Electrical Engineer... Not on TV but on your plane.  Start with grounding at the ACU/VR.  

    

But, think ahead and plan ahead.  Make a Ground point at the ALT Switch and put a ring lug on the shield.  If you find ALT Noise try grounding at the ground point you made with the shield near (as close as possible) the ALT Switch.  

    

   

    

It is a GOOD idea to make Ring Lug Grounds on both ends of the shield just in case the noise did not go to the same school as the electrons.  YET!  In all honesty I have never found that to be the case.  

    

   

    

6 - Don't forget to install a Capacitor on the OUTPUT of the Alternator B+.  All the shielding in the world won't do dittily if the noise is traveling out and down your B+.  

    

   

    

   

    

Barry  

    

   

    

     

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 3:20 PM, AZFlyer <millrML(at)aol.com (millrML(at)aol.com)> wrote:  

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" <millrML(at)AOL.com>

 

 List,

 

 As I am major wiring challenged, I'm reading all the "experts" on getting my 3300 wired.  There seems to be one school of thought on "Shielded wiring" that says..." ground both ends" and another school says only "ground the source end."    or risk a Ground Loop (whatever that is?)

 

 source:  Bingelis, Greg Richter, AeroElectric

 

 I haven't located that book " Wiring for Dummies"  so, any help would be appreciated...

 

 Thanks,

 Mike

 

 --------

 Mike Miller (at) millrml(at)aol.com (millrml(at)aol.com)

 601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon

 

 Remember,  &quot;the second mouse gets the cheese&quot;!

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312943#312943

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

   

  

   

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:45 am Post subject: Shielded wiring

At what frequencies Noel?



What frequency are the spikes?

O!  Wait a second... There ARE NO SPIKES on a SHIELD ... It is at the same potential as GROUND!



Barry

 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:

[quote] --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>

 

 Grounding at both ends turns the shielded wire into a capacitive inductor.

 Grounding at one end only, usually the end which is closest to the source of

 the power.  Grounding at one end allows spikes and RFI to be sent to ground

 efficiently.

 

 Noel

 

 --

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:52 am Post subject: Shielded wiring

Very Good Points Noel.



On #4 - It does work BOTH ways.



On #5 -- Very Good Point Neil.... I failed to mention that.  Thanks for

catching me.  AND since we are in the EXPERIMENTAL CLASS - - - Radio Shack

(of which I despise) makes a very good filter, two of them mater of fact: A

Alternator filter and an inline filter.  The cost use to be $15 each.  CHEEP

when you compare it against your travel time and build time.

And THANK YOU Noel.



I guess I am a bit like you too ... "not always"  



Barry



On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:



[quote]  #1 most important.  To emphasize what Barry has written even if you take

 it off it may still look clean but may not be.  So be sure to clean it

 vigorously.  One thing though if you have to clean aluminium don’t use steel

 wool, aluminium oxide paper is safe to clean aluminium.  Shards of steel or

 iron will imbed itself into aluminium and cause corrosion in the aluminium.



 #2 Full agreement if in doubt ground it out!



 #3 Again full agreement but the shielding is to protect from outside

 interference.



 #4 The only RF circuits that should be grounded at both ends are Coaxial

 connections.  Of course coax is used almost entirely for RF transmissions

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: Shielded wiring

In this case the frequencies that are common on the P-leads, around twice to four times the rpm of the engine.  (Depends on the engine) The idea of the shield is to prevent the spikes from leaking onto the buss.   

   

Of course shields are not only used to keep EMI (Electro-Magnetic Interference) leaking from a wire core but also to keep EMI or RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) out of wire cores.  

   

Unshielded wires can also be subject to parasitic resonance.  If that happens then your electrical system can do many interesting things every time you press the ptt.  Television stations used to have a grounded faraday cage built around their control rooms with extremely good grounds (note plural) to protect the equipment from RFI.  Shielding wire is the same thing on a smaller, much smaller scale.  

   

Noel  

     

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: September 21, 2010 9:12 AM

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Shielded wiring  

  

   

At what frequencies Noel?    

   

    

What frequency are the spikes?  

    

   

    

O!  Wait a second... There ARE NO SPIKES on a SHIELD .. It is at the same potential as GROUND!  

    



 Barry  

    

     

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:  

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>

 

 Grounding at both ends turns the shielded wire into a capacitive inductor.

 Grounding at one end only, usually the end which is closest to the source of

 the power.  Grounding at one end allows spikes and RFI to be sent to ground

 efficiently.

 

 Noel    



 --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:11 am Post subject: Shielded wiring

You only miss the cheap stuff that Radio Shack used to have when they are gone...  Now in Newfoundland I have to order in copper clad and many other items that I used to pick up as needed at the local Radio Scrap.  

   

Noel  

     

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: September 21, 2010 9:20 AM

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Shielded wiring  

  

   

Very Good Points Noel.    

   

    

On #4 - It does work BOTH ways.  

    

   

    

On #5 -- Very Good Point Neil.... I failed to mention that.  Thanks for catching me.  AND since we are in the EXPERIMENTAL CLASS - - - Radio Shack (of which I despise) makes a very good filter, two of them mater of fact: A Alternator filter and an inline filter.  The cost use to be $15 each.  CHEEP when you compare it against your travel time and build time.  

    

   

    

   

    

And THANK YOU Noel.  

    

   

    

I guess I am a bit like you too ... "not always"    

    

   

    

Barry  

    

     

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:      

#1 most important.  To emphasize what Barry has written even if you take it off it may still look clean but may not be.  So be sure to clean it vigorously.  One thing though if you have to clean aluminium don’t use steel wool, aluminium oxide paper is safe to clean aluminium.  Shards of steel or iron will imbed itself into aluminium and cause corrosion in the aluminium.  

#2 Full agreement if in doubt ground it out!  

#3 Again full agreement but the shielding is to protect from outside interference.  

#4 The only RF circuits that should be grounded at both ends are Coaxial connections.  Of course coax is used almost entirely for RF transmissions.  Again the ground braid needs to be clean!  

#5 Again I’m in total agreement with Barry but...  Sometimes alternator squeal will penetrate the front end of your radios.  In that case you will need a choke on the input to the radio to filter out the squeal.  A choke is a circuit that comprises a capacitor and a coil of wire.  The good news is they are readily available at auto parts shops.  

   

Not often I agree with everything a person says but this is really one of the exceptions that makes the rule... Well written Barry.  

   

Noel    

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: September 19, 2010 9:17 PM    



 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)  

    

Subject: Re: Shielded wiring  

  

  

   

Mike:      

   

    

Here are the RULES for Grounds and Shielding:  

    

1 - GROUNDS - You can't inspect a ground by looking at it... YOU HAVE TO REMOVE IT... And while it is off clean CLEAN the contacts and replace the star washers..  

    

2 - GROUNDS - The more the merrier.  It took a LONG time but even Bob Nicholes FINALLY caught on and NOW SELLS multi ground point blocks.  I use to frequent his web site/email list and pounded my case for about a year.  But old wives tails die hard.  

    

3 - GROUNDS - Ground Loops do NOT occur at DC.  They are a High Frequency occurrence - High Frequency is in the RF Range (RF = Radio Frequency - Transmittable Frequencies)(Not Audio Frequencies... AF).  AND I still have a challenge out that NO ONE has met.  MAKE ME A GROUND LOOP DC CIRCUIT!  

    

4 - SHIELDING - Or in this case: What End of a Shield To Ground?    

    

RF circuits you shield at BOTH ENDS. And lets consider RF as only the frequencies we see in out planes... VHF.  

    

I know, I know, we all have GPS and they are at microwave frequencies.  BUT!  You are not building the units or the antennas, just installing them.  

    

5 - SHIELDING - When you consider things such as Alternator Noise... The noise is in the audio frequency range and the source is the alternator so you ground at the source/alternator.  

    

NOW!  What happens went the alternator wires reach the ACU/VR (Alternator Control Unit/Voltage Regulator) and then go out  to other locations (ALT Switch)?  Well there the rule stating says ground the source, but what is the source?  

    

The ACU/VR is the source, But it is already Grounded, usually to the firewall. SOooooo what do you do with the SHIELD?  

    

You play Electrical Engineer... Not on TV but on your plane.  Start with grounding at the ACU/VR.  

    

But, think ahead and plan ahead.  Make a Ground point at the ALT Switch and put a ring lug on the shield.  If you find ALT Noise try grounding at the ground point you made with the shield near (as close as possible) the ALT Switch.  

    

   

    

It is a GOOD idea to make Ring Lug Grounds on both ends of the shield just in case the noise did not go to the same school as the electrons.  YET!  In all honesty I have never found that to be the case.  

    

   

    

6 - Don't forget to install a Capacitor on the OUTPUT of the Alternator B+.  All the shielding in the world won't do dittily if the noise is traveling out and down your B+.  

    

   

    

   

    

Barry  

    

   

  

    

       

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 3:20 PM, AZFlyer <millrML(at)aol.com (millrML(at)aol.com)> wrote:  

    

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" <millrML(at)AOL.com>

 

 List,

 

 As I am major wiring challenged, I'm reading all the "experts" on getting my 3300 wired.  There seems to be one school of thought on "Shielded wiring" that says..." ground both ends" and another school says only "ground the source end."    or risk a Ground Loop (whatever that is?)

 

 source:  Bingelis, Greg Richter, AeroElectric

 

 I haven't located that book " Wiring for Dummies"  so, any help would be appreciated...

 

 Thanks,

 Mike

 

 --------

 Mike Miller (at) millrml(at)aol.com (millrml(at)aol.com)

 601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon

 

 Remember,  &quot;the second mouse gets the cheese&quot;!

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312943#312943

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

  

===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

   

  

   

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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