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HKS & Kolb

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mccarthy(at)jefnet.com
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:23 am Post subject: HKS & Kolb

I am in the final stage of installing a HKS on my Slingshot.  My question to those that have done it on any Kolb are,  what gearbox ratio, and is it installed up or down, and what prop type and size are you running.  My configuration is a 3.47 gear box mounted up, and a borrowed 68" 3 blade warp set to 17 1/2 degree pitch.  There is plenty of room to install up to a 72", but I'm trying to get the most speed and compromise climb. any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,



Tom McCarthy

N514 TM  Zenith 601HD 240 hrs

N414 TM  Kolb Firestar 377, 594 hrs

N863 GB  Kolb Slingshot 154 hrs

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:25 am Post subject: Re: HKS & Kolb

I'm thinking try what you've got for a while. I am using a two bladed 68" Ivo with a 582 (which makes a tad more power) but a taller ratio 2.58 B box and it is working really good. 



I reserve the right to be wrong, but with about 60 horsepower on tap, I wouldn't go any longer on diameter. 68" of diameter will give you lots of climb - originally the MKIII had a 64" three blade Ivo with a 532, and 3 blades was too much, the 532 didn't have the torque to turn it correctly, so I took it down to 2 blades and that was a good combination of climb and economical cruise, plus it burned less gas at cruise than a 503.

.



Then went to a 66" two blade Ivo and the climb improved, but the cruise was unchanged. The 532 then spun the shaft gear just as I heard about a freshly zero'd 582 with a new box, so I upgraded and simultaneously went to a 68" two blade prop. Climb improved some more, no change in cruise, but it uses more gas. 



Not sure how all that relates to an HKS with a slower gearbox, sort of an apples and oranges thing, but I guess I said all that to say that with around 60 HP on tap, anything bigger than 68" could turn out to be a bit much. 



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:25 am Post subject: HKS & Kolb

My configuration is a 3.47  gear box mounted up, and a borrowed 68" 3 blade warp set to 17 1/2 degree  pitch.  There is plenty of room to install up to a 72", but I'm trying to  get the most speed and compromise climb. any input would be  appreciated.

Thanks,

  

 Tom, 

    Here is my  installation on a Fire Star II. I have a Warp 2 blade 66 inch Prop. You might  talk to Jerry Olenek (at) Green Sky Adventures since he has installed a HKS on a  Slingshot prior to mine.

  

 mail(at)greenskyadventures.com (mail(at)greenskyadventures.com)

  

 Larry



  

 [img]cid:E929A592BF804319A9BAD9AF8C3A5C74(at)larryPC[/img]

  

  

  

  

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: HKS & Kolb

Richard, I've been running a 68" 4 blade Powerfin on my HKS powered trike for 170 hours now and I don't see the problem you're concerned about. I set the pitch to give 5900 RPM in climb (about 57 to 58 HP depending on how you interpolate on the power curve and it works just fine. 



Rick Girard



On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 

 I'm thinking try what you've got for a while. I am using a two bladed 68" Ivo with a 582 (which makes a tad more power) but a taller ratio 2.58 B box and it is working really good.

 

 I reserve the right to be wrong, but with about 60 horsepower on tap, I wouldn't go any longer on diameter. 68" of diameter will give you lots of climb - originally the MKIII had a 64" three blade Ivo with a 532, and 3 blades was too much, the 532 didn't have the torque to turn it correctly, so I took it down to 2 blades and that was a good combination of climb and economical cruise, plus it burned less gas at cruise than a 503.

  .

 

 Then went to a 66" two blade Ivo and the climb improved, but the cruise was unchanged. The 532 then spun the shaft gear just as I heard about a freshly zero'd 582 with a new box, so I upgraded and simultaneously went to a 68" two blade prop. Climb improved some more, no change in cruise, but it uses more gas.

  

 Not sure how all that relates to an HKS with a slower gearbox, sort of an apples and oranges thing, but I guess I said all that to say that with around 60 HP on tap, anything bigger than 68" could turn out to be a bit much.

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 

 

 

 

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 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314345#314345

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

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lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:02 pm Post subject: HKS & Kolb

Tom,

    You are aware that the HKS has about the same  performance of a 503, I am sure. I have heard that they are using the same  engine with a Turbo and getting 100 hp out of it. I hesitate to suggest that a  higher thrust line would not be beneficial, but if I were you I would check it  out before I got too serious about it.

 Larry

  

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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: HKS & Kolb

 	  rickofudall wrote: 	
		  Richard, I've been running a 68" 4 blade Powerfin on my HKS powered trike for 170 hours now and I don't see the problem you're concerned about. I set the pitch to give 5900 RPM in climb (about 57 to 58 HP depending on how you interpolate on the power curve and it works just fine. 

Rick Girard



	




What is your speed range?  I bet the prop is quiet with that ratio?



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:05 pm Post subject: HKS & Kolb

I have the 3.45 gearbox. Yes, the quietness of the engine and prop are commented on often. Depending on the wing I run on it I tend to keep the RPM fairly low. With the 19M wing I rarely run it over 5000 RPM in cruise. With the 14.5 I'll go to 5400. Those are the settings that get an efficient hands off the bar cruise. If I push the RPM up I just get a workout pulling the bar in, but no extra speed for the excess gas it burns. 

Rick

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 rickofudall wrote:

 > Richard, I've been running a 68" 4 blade Powerfin on my HKS powered trike for 170 hours now and I don't see the problem you're concerned about. I set the pitch to give 5900 RPM in climb (about 57 to 58 HP depending on how you interpolate on the power curve and it works just fine.

  > Rick Girard

 >

 >

 What is your speed range?  I bet the prop is quiet with that ratio?

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314377#314377

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Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton

  [quote][b]

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: Re: HKS & Kolb

I just wonder why you are putting an HKS on a slingshot ???  This engine is really to small for that plane.  It will probably fly but you will have a big compromise in speed and climb.   I believe it will get off the ground, but these planes are so much more enjoyable when they are not underpowered.  The best engine choice for that plane is the Rotax 912-S.



Mike

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Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: HKS & Kolb

Tom,

    The only thing that I would worry about is  the higher thrust line. Mine with the HKS and a 66 inch prop climbs when I give  it power rather than cause me to hold up elevator. Mine is trimmed to 5300 and  5800 gives me about 200 fpm climb.

 Your plane, your choices!

 Larry

      

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: HKS & Kolb

Larry, Do you mean to say at WOT climb, you're only getting 200 fpm? I've measured the climb in my trike with a variometer on days from 60 to 100 degrees and the worst I ever got was 500 fpm at 800 lb. all up. On cooler days I've seem 800 fpm and that was with the smaller speed wing. 



Rick



On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com (lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		          Tom,

    The only thing that I would worry about is  the higher thrust line. Mine with the HKS and a 66 inch prop climbs when I give  it power rather than cause me to hold up elevator. Mine is trimmed to 5300 and  5800 gives me about 200 fpm climb.

 Your plane, your choices!

 Larry

      

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the  forwarding history, which includes my email address.

    	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

 - G.K. Chesterton

 

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:21 pm Post subject: HKS & Kolb

Rick G/Gang:

  

 How does the trike compare to the FSII in  performance/weight, etc?

  

 I guess the line of thrust on the trike (which I  know very little to nothing about) is below the wing and the FSII above the  wing.

  

 Did not realize the trike, all up, weighed that  much, 800 lbs.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 Rock House, OR

 [quote]    

Larry, Do you mean to say at WOT    climb, you're only getting 200 fpm? I've measured the climb in my trike with a    variometer on days from 60 to 100 degrees and the worst I ever got was 500 fpm    at 800 lb. all up. On cooler days I've seem 800 fpm and that was with the    smaller speed wing.   



   Rick



    



[b]

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: HKS & Kolb

Larry, Do you mean to say at WOT climb, you're only getting 200 fpm

  

 No, not at all. Well perhaps it seemed that I did. I have  the plane trimmed to 5300 rpm hands off. When I increase the rpms to 5800 it  climbs at 200 or more fpm hands off. On my trip to Burns recently, I left the  rpm's at 5800 and was able to cruise at 67 MPH (GPS) and still climb to 7000  feet before I reached the Mountains that I needed to clear, and still only burn  3 gph. 

 Larry

  

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:07 am Post subject: Re: HKS & Kolb

Tom,



Your signature states that you have 154 hours in a Slingshot. What engine have you been flying the slingshot with prior to installing the HKS? The reason I ask is that what you are accustomed to will have some bearing on what your expectations are for the HKS powered Slingshot.



As a frame of reference, my 80 hp Slingshot, which is a direct drive Jabiru with 2 blade 64" wood prop, accelerates at a phenomenal rate during take-off run but does have a lot of nose down pitch moment at full throttle with the rather high thrust line, so I usually don't use full throttle until I'm airborne and up to Vy. At 800 lbs, my typical flying weight, on a warm day it climbs at about 800 fpm from a 700' elevation field. I normally cruise at about 60-65% power at 80-82 mph TAS at low density altitudes and about 4-5 mph faster than that at higher DAs. 



The same airplane with an 80 hp Rotax will climb better with a bigger, slower turning prop but the cruise speed is likely about the same at the same power setting. I am guessing that the PSRU equipped HKS with the right prop should climb nearly as well as my direct drive 80 hp. At 60-65% power setting I would expect the HKS powered Slingshot to cruise at about 73-75 mph TAS at low DA and 3-4 mph faster up high. The Slingshot, like all Kolbs hits a speed wall so adding much more power gives rapidly diminishing returns in terms of speed vs fuel burn.



Hope this helps.

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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:44 pm Post subject: HKS & Kolb

John, I have the little wing rigged as tight as I can get it and 55 is a comfortable cruise. I could get 60 out of it but I'd have to either put the cg so far forward to keep the nose down or spend the entire flight straining against it. At 55 she flies hands off. Meadowlark's max gross is 1000 lb which gives her a 423 lb useful load with a full tank. 



Rick



On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:37 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com (lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		          Larry, Do you mean to say at WOT climb, you're only getting 200 fpm

  

 

No, not at all. Well perhaps it seemed that I did. I have  the plane trimmed to 5300 rpm hands off. When I increase the rpms to 5800 it  climbs at 200 or more fpm hands off. On my trip to Burns recently, I left the  rpm's at 5800 and was able to cruise at 67 MPH (GPS) and still climb to 7000  feet before I reached the Mountains that I needed to clear, and still only burn  3 gph. 

 Larry

  

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the  forwarding history, which includes my email address.

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: HKS & Kolb

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am in the final stage of installing a HKS on my Slingshot. My question to those that have done it on any Kolb are, what gearbox ratio, and is it installed up or down, and what prop type and size are you running. My configuration is a 3.47 gear box mounted up, and a borrowed 68" 3 blade warp set to 17 1/2 degree pitch. There is plenty of room to install up to a 72", but I'm trying to get the most speed and compromise climb. any input would be appreciated. 	




Thom, 



Here is a link to Jerry Olenik's report on flight testing an HKS on a Slingshot.



 www.greenskyadventures.com/EnginePricing/HKS/Kolb/image.htm



I watched Jerry fly this Slingshot around the pattern in January of '08 at his home field in Forida. It performed fine, and Jerry goes about 210 lbs. or so. I don't see why your Slingshot should perform any differently with the HKS.



 I had Jerry install an HKS on my Firestar II in July of '09. I've got 140 hrs on the engine and have had no trouble with it at all. My FS II weighs 435 lbs. empty no fuel, and 750 lbs. or so w/ me, 13 gal fuel, & some gear. I get a 550-700 fpm best climb rate on average. Mine has the 2.58 gearbox and a 66" 2-blade Powerfin prop.



Good luck with your project -

_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:49 pm Post subject: Re:Re: HKS & Kolb

Tom,



After looking closely at some photos I took of Jerry flying the HKS powered Slingshot, I noticed the N# is 863GB. That would be your plane.



I guess the guy you bought it from removed the HKS for some reason. Well, at least you now know it's had one on before.

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Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

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