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Electrical Problem

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Lyle Persels

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Osceola, IA

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:57 am Post subject: Electrical Problem

I'm an old timer on the list who reads the list daily but rarely posts.



I have a Model IV with a 912S. My charging system has apparently  

failed. The voltage indicator shows battery voltage, not charging  

circuit voltage, regardless of rpm, and the the ammeter indicates a  

slight drain where it showed none before this problem arose. The  

battery runs down in a relatively short period of operation. The low  

voltage causes the electronic tach to read several hundred rpm low. I  

find no wiring problem.



I hate to buy a new regulator just to troubleshoot. Can anyone suggest  

what the problem(s) might be and how to check?



Lyle Persels

Iowa

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KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:44 am Post subject: Electrical Problem

Lyle I rarely post myself.  The problem could be a bad connection in  your electrical system.  Carefully check all connections, especially ground  connections and battery terminal connections.

  

 You don't say in your post what your voltmeter is actually reading.   It is possible you simply have a bad battery (a shorted cell) that is pulling  your alternator/regulator's output down and the bad battery never charges up to  full voltage of 12.5-13.0 volts.

  

 Charge the battery with an external overnight battery charger of 12 watt (1  amp) size.  If the battery is up to 12.5 to 13 volts in the morning with  charger removed, it is probably good and the regulator is bad.

  

 Substitute a known good fully charged battery from one of your cars or lawn  tractor and confirm with a voltmeter that the battery voltage is 12.5 - 13  volts.  With the engine running, the good substitute battery's voltage  should come up to 13.8 - 14 volts.  If not, the alternator/regulator's  output is defective.

  

 Good luck,

  

 John Z. 

  

  In a message dated 10/12/2010 9:58:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lpers(at)mchsi.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels <lpers(at)mchsi.com>



I'm    an old timer on the list who reads the list daily but rarely posts.



I    have a Model IV with a 912S. My charging system has apparently     

failed. The voltage indicator shows battery voltage, not charging     

circuit voltage, regardless of rpm, and the the ammeter indicates a     

slight drain where it showed none before this problem arose. The     

battery runs down in a relatively short period of operation. The low     

voltage causes the electronic tach to read several hundred rpm low.    I  

find no wiring problem.



I hate to buy a new regulator just    to troubleshoot. Can anyone suggest  

what the problem(s) might be and    how to check?



Lyle  ========================bsp;   the  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


  [quote][b]

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: Electrical Problem

On 10/12/2010 6:48 AM, Lyle Persels wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  I hate to buy a new regulator just to troubleshoot. Can anyone suggest what the problem(s) might be and how to check? 	
 

 Lyle,

     There have been failures of the wiring coming out of the PM alternator. The only diagnostic info I could find on it's output is

 

 There is nothing in the Rotax 912 manuals to assist in doing this. I 

 checked the internal engine coil resistance reading and found it to 

 be .7-ohms. The DC voltage at the regulator is the same previously 

 reported (still under 13-volts). Finally I measured AC voltage coming 

 from the coils. The voltage varied as follows: 

 Idle (1900-RPM) was 12.8 volts 

 2500-RPM was 16.0 v 

 3000-RPM was 19.0 v 

 4000-RPM was 24.5 v 

 cruse(5000-RPM)was not measured. 

 

      So check your AC output at the input to the voltage regulator and see if it looks like this. If it does then check your voltage regulator output. It should be about 13.8 volts at 4000 rpm. If it's not then the regulator's failed, a relatively common occurrence. You'll get lots of help and information on these types of problems at the Aeroelectric Matronics list. 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3

 

 -- 

           Guy Buchanan   Normal   Guy Buchanan   2   13   2010-09-24T17:53:00Z   2010-09-24T17:53:00Z   1   30   173   1   1   202   14.00          <![endif]-->        false            false   false   false      EN-US   X-NONE   X-NONE                                                                                             <![endif]-->                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <![endif]-->      /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-priority:99; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin-top:0in; 	mso-para-margin-right:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; 	mso-para-margin-left:0in; 	line-height:115%; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:11.0pt; 	font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;}  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->       <![endif]-->  

Guy Buchanan 

Scoutmaster – Troop 680 

760.809.6145 

scoutmaster(at)troop680.org (scoutmaster(at)troop680.org) 

  

www.troop680.org 

  

 

    [quote][b]

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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:56 am Post subject: Electrical Problem

My personal experience.  I went through all kinds of trouble shooting. 

I bought a new regulator.  Problem fixed.



Pete

On 10/12/2010 8:48 AM, Lyle Persels wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm an old timer on the list who reads the list daily but rarely posts.



 I have a Model IV with a 912S. My charging system has apparently failed.

 The voltage indicator shows battery voltage, not charging circuit

 voltage, regardless of rpm, and the the ammeter indicates a slight drain

 where it showed none before this problem arose. The battery runs down in

 a relatively short period of operation. The low voltage causes the

 electronic tach to read several hundred rpm low. I find no wiring problem.



 I hate to buy a new regulator just to troubleshoot. Can anyone suggest

 what the problem(s) might be and how to check?



 Lyle Persels

 Iowa

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical Problem

Mine is a Rotax two stroke. To trouble shoot it when the battery went dead I disconnected the battery and checked the voltage coming out of the voltage regulator. It was only 1/2 volt DC at all RPM.  It should be 13.5 to 14 volts.



I then disconnected the voltage regulator and checked the voltage coming out of the engine alternator. It was 35 volts AC at 3000 rpm and 70 volts AC at 6000 RPM. Normal according to the engine manual. I then knew it was a bad regulator.



I put on a new Key West regulator. It puts out 14 volts DC at all RPM.

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_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:39 pm Post subject: Electrical Problem

Caution doing this!  Most voltage regulators require the battery to be  in the circuit for system DC stability.  It is very possible to smoke the  voltage regulator and other electronic components on the bus without the  battery's reference supply voltage connected!

  

 John Z.



  

  In a message dated 10/12/2010 5:27:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  nahsikhs(at)elltel.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones"    <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>



Mine is a Rotax two stroke. To trouble    shoot it when the battery went dead I disconnected the battery and checked the    voltage coming out of the voltage regulator. It was only 1/2 volt DC at all    RPM.  It should be 13.5 to 14 volts.



I then disconnected the    voltage regulator and checked the voltage coming out of the engine alternator.    It was 35 volts AC at 3000 rpm and 70 volts AC at 6000 RPM. Normal according    to the engine manual. I then knew it was a bad regulator.



I put on a    new Key West regulator. It puts out 14 volts DC at all    RPM.



--------

Tom Jones

Classic IV

503 Rotax, 72 inch Two    blade Warp

Ellensburg, WA





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315476#315476===============================================

_-=    the  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


  [quote][b]

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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical Problem

Okay, disregard my post above. Bad advice. I should keep out of the 912 discussions.

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_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:37 am Post subject: Electrical Problem

Generally when a plane stops charging it is in one of two areas.    

First the alternator isn’t producing power the easy check is to test the output with an AC volt meter across the terminals coming from the alternator to the regulator.  I’d be surprised th ofind your alternator isn’t working but it is possible.  

   

The second point of problem is grounding.  As was mentioned in the last post make sure all your ground connections ate shiny clean.  To do this means taking off all the ground straps and cleaning the contact areas and then reassembling the grounds.  What wasn’t mentioned is many regulators ground through the case of the regulator.  So don’t forget to remove the regulator from the fire wall and make sure everything is shiny clean under it.  

   

I’m not a betting man but I’ll go out on a limb here and bet a whole bubblegum that is your problem.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KITFOXZ(at)aol.com

 Sent: October 12, 2010 1:12 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Electrical Problem  

  

  

     

Lyle I rarely post myself.  The problem could be a bad connection in your electrical system.  Carefully check all connections, especially ground connections and battery terminal connections.  

    

   

    

You don't say in your post what your voltmeter is actually reading.  It is possible you simply have a bad battery (a shorted cell) that is pulling your alternator/regulator's output down and the bad battery never charges up to full voltage of 12.5-13.0 volts.  

    

   

    

Charge the battery with an external overnight battery charger of 12 watt (1 amp) size.  If the battery is up to 12.5 to 13 volts in the morning with charger removed, it is probably good and the regulator is bad.  

    

   

    

Substitute a known good fully charged battery from one of your cars or lawn tractor and confirm with a voltmeter that the battery voltage is 12.5 - 13 volts.  With the engine running, the good substitute battery's voltage should come up to 13.8 - 14 volts.  If not, the alternator/regulator's output is defective.  

    

   

    

Good luck,  

    

   

    

John Z.   

    

   

      

In a message dated 10/12/2010 9:58:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lpers(at)mchsi.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels <lpers(at)mchsi.com>

 

 I'm an old timer on the list who reads the list daily but rarely posts.

 

 I have a Model IV with a 912S. My charging system has apparently  

 failed. The voltage indicator shows battery voltage, not charging  

 circuit voltage, regardless of rpm, and the the ammeter indicates a  

 slight drain where it showed none before this problem arose. The  

 battery runs down in a relatively short period of operation. The low  

 voltage causes the electronic tach to read several hundred rpm low. I  

 find no wiring problem.

 

 I hate to buy a new regulator just to troubleshoot. Can anyone suggest  

 what the problem(s) might be and how to check?

 

 Lyle ========================bsp; the ties Day =======================              - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS =======================            - List Contribution Web Site sp;                         =

 

 

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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