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a stall between 2 fools

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vince(at)devonwindmills.c
Guest

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:48 am Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

.Pat,

            I didnt reply to this because of spam prolems but now I have 

read it again.I wasnt sure if you were pulling my and everyones leg.

            But now I believe you may have at least one idea at variance 

with my understanding.Particularlynabout the demise of the Flea.The list of 

planes I gave you were all famously pitch unstable to some extent., and 

would be able to runaway into a dive as the centre of pressure moved back so 

far that the remaining pitch up authority of the controls  was insufficient 

the flea woud have its front wing cof p go to the trailing edge if reduced 

to about zero angle of attack, speed would increase and the fixed lifting 

tail would increase lift with its own c of p moving back. From that 

condition without being able to exert downforce at the back a tuck/dive 

would continue which was not recoverable.[The deepstallers were the Trident 

and Bac111-but they were fixed]

            . Modern Fleas were fixed, have moving control of part or all 

the rear surface.

            Hang gliders had a similar problem and without some ability to 

counter rearward movement of the main centre of pressure will tuck 

/overspeed.

            ALL classic aircraft have to provide a sufficient downforce on 

the tail to balance the couple derived from all lift forces against all 

downward g forces{lets forget about the pitching couple of thrust against 

drag] If cog g is allowed to move back the tail downforce can be reduced for 

less drag but then pitch instability sets in and there is a limit you cannot 

safely exceed.I have flown aircraft which due to bad loading were beyond the 

authorised aft c of g anI can assure you they were very unpleasant That is 

why there is so much attention to the cof g position on the weight and 

balance part of permit to fly renewals {There are exceptions which rely on 

computer control programming, such as the euro fighter and also  Boeing  and 

Lockheed prototypes}

    So yes there is in normal flight a down load on the tail and if the 

download rquired is high enough the elevator can stall.Typically the use of 

flaps brings main cof p back, requiring increased up elevator and a retrim.

            Remember when you have trimmed to fly normal flight with stick 

neutral that does`nt mean there is no  down force on the tail

            .On our microlights without benefit of so much design expertise 

and wind tunnel work, there may not be enough elevator authority to complete 

a landing flare, so a good fix is the turbulators under the tailplane

Vince Hallam

please phone rather than email

07941 313141

01803 316191

www.devonwindmills.co.uk

---

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

Particularly about the demise of the Flea>>



Hi Vince,



Sorry. Just sloppiness on my part. I should not have just lumped 

uncontrollably diving into the ground in the same category as `deep stall`.



Incidentally, I saw one of the original Fleas on display at our largest 

ultralight show last week. A ferocious piece of work. I don`t think anyone 

who actually knew much about planes would willingly trust themselves in it. 

Of course most of the people who were building them back in the 30`s DID NOT 

know anything about flying and the promise of easy construction, cheap 

flying blinded them to the fact that it was dangerous.



Even the new models don`t inspire a great deal of confidence but they are 

very manouverable.  I have seen film of a Flea get together in France . 

People turning up towing the Flea on its own wheels behind their cars, 

putting the thing together and flying.  There did seem to be a lot of 

taxying and not much actual flying.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



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rsanoa

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Bell Buckle,TN

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

Tons of Fleas flying. The new design flys perfectly safely. As with all ultralights, the problem remains, a suitable light weight and reliable engine.  Type in Flying Fleas into Google and find plenty of links for information.

  Do not archive.

  UltraStar,  Tenn.



pat ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

  

Particularly about the demise of the Flea>>



Hi Vince,



Sorry. Just sloppiness on my part. I should not have just lumped 

uncontrollably diving into the ground in the same category as `deep stall`.



Incidentally, I saw one of the original Fleas on display at our largest 

ultralight show last week. A ferocious piece of work. I don`t think anyone 

who actually knew much about planes would willingly trust themselves in it. 

Of course most of the people who were building them back in the 30`s DID NOT 

know anything about flying and the promise of easy construction, cheap 

flying blinded them to the fact that it was dangerous.



Even the new models don`t inspire a great deal of confidence but they are 

very manouverable. I have seen film of a Flea get together in France . 

People turning up towing the Flea on its own wheels behind their cars, 

putting the thing together and flying. There did seem to be a lot of 

taxying and not much actual flying.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



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_________________
Ray S.Anderson

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

The new design flys perfectly safely>>



Hi Ray,



they seem to be OK and a couple have  arrived across the Channel from France 

for our major ultralight show. Very, very draggy. I wouldn`t buy one.



I still love the subject title>



Pat



do not archive





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