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100ll 100% of the time

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JohnF

Joined: 13 May 2010
Posts: 124

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: 100ll 100% of the time

I am contemplating use of 100ll all the time as  long as its available instead of the soon to be 15% (if not already) ethanol in  a Rotax 912ULS. I use Aeroshell Sport Plus 4, and would plan 25-hour oil changes  and use of Decalin. I fly about 50-hours per year. Your comments would be  welcome.

   [quote][b]

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:26 pm Post subject: 100ll 100% of the time

There are several guys in the Kitfox squadron here in Phoenix that use nothing else but 100LL...100% of the time. They use a lead scavenger like Decalin with every fill up and things work just fine. My buddy has 800 + hours on his 912S and has had no trouble.

 Dan B



 

   From: John Fasching <n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us>

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, October 23, 2010 2:12:55 PM

Subject: 100ll 100% of the time



   I am contemplating use of 100ll all the time as long as its available instead of the soon to be 15% (if not already) ethanol in a Rotax 912ULS. I use Aeroshell Sport Plus 4, and would plan 25-hour oil changes and use of Decalin. I fly about 50-hours per year. Your comments would be welcome.

[quote]

[b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: 100ll 100% of the time

Hi John,



Sounds like you have a good handle on the use of 100LL. 

Buuuttt,  If you have seen any pictures or a leaded engine or have seen the engine top ends and gearbox's I have you wouldn't use 100LL unless forced to during travel. When you see the lead paste build up in the oil tank you will need to de-lead the gearbox at 800 hours not 1000 hrs. and send the  gearbox clutch in to have the lead removed or else it won't properly work any more, or if you had seen the lead on top of the pistons and around the valves you may want to reconsider if you can. Rotax advises to use 91 Oct and stay away from 100LL if at all possible. We just gave a class and some pictures were shown to the students of the lead deposits. I think it made believers out of them.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

JohnF

Joined: 13 May 2010
Posts: 124

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: 100ll 100% of the time

Ok, then what should we do? Use 15% ethanol, use 100ll 50% of the time, and 

15% ethanol 50% of time .... my personal hope is that 100ll goes away as 

soon as possible and whatever substitute is made available will be better 

for the 912...high enough octane, no lead...a dream proabably...it won't 

happen until long after I am dead.....I really don't know what to 

do...'washing' ethanol-laced fuel doesn't appeal to me and ethanol-free auto 

gas is no longer available in my area.



Your suggestion?

---

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: 100ll 100% of the time

Hi John,



I have to ask why not use the auto fuel?



If you were going to mix 100LL with Auto fuel then you might as well use all auto fuel. The ethanol will not hurt the Rotax engine so that shouldn't even be one of your concerns. Most all fuel lines now days can handle ethanol or we would have all sorts of problems in our cars and motorcycles. So that leaves pretty much just the fuel tank. Make sure it is ok with our 6%-8% ethanol that is found at most pumps and just use the auto fuel. If there is absolutely no way you can use the auto fuel and you are stuck with 100LL then you need to resign yourself that you will and must do so extra maint.

The lead in 100LL is like smoking or cholesterol and fats in our blood. It doesn't kill you or give you a heart attack today. It builds up over time until it's too late.



There is no ethanol free fuel in my area either. I have been using it for many years as others have here. People in the rest of the world use anywhere from 17%-24% ethanol in their Rotax and have no issues. People who worry about ethanol in their Rotax 912 are worrying over nothing. Just take a look at the rest of the fuel system and if it's ok your set to go.



You can Kreem Weiss your tanks and that is not susceptible to the ethanol. My tanks and all the aircraft like mine and other LSA have their tanks coated with Kreem Weiss. It's good for sealing any kind of leaks, too. Personally if I had wing tanks I would just coat them and don't look back.



Decalin, a lead scavenger will only do so much, but it does help. You still have lead build up. If you use Decalin and 100LL you need to run higher rpm at cruise (5300) to help keep the lead blown out. If you cruise around 4700-5000 rpm you are not doing what needs to be done to help keep the engine clean. Anyone who thinks 100LL with Decalin doesn't allow lead build up has never seen an 800 hr. engine or gearbox torn down. Sure it will run, but what you don't see is harmful, just like the cholesterol. Just because you can't see it and your engine hasn't given you any issues yet doesn't mean it isn't there.



From what I have seen most peoples weakest link is the fuel tank with the ethanol.

Dan,



If the guy you are talking about with 800 hrs. has been using all 100LL for all those hours he really should pull the gearbox and have the slipper clutch dismantled and cleaned. Once the lead gets in there it isn't working any more. It is just a solid piece of metal and if he has a prop strike it won't work. When he has hard starts or shut downs it is harder on the system, too. We just got through showing a bunch of people in a class pictures of gearbox clutches with 100LL use. They were amazed at how much lead really was in them. Pulled the heads and showed them all the lead there, too.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:16 am Post subject: Re: 100ll 100% of the time

Roger I just passed 1100 hours in Rotax 2strokes with Ethanol gas.



is there a problem with ethanol gas ?



The ones that whine about it -heck might not fly much ?



Armchair captains



Check my videos -- Real time proof it works .



I am not a supporter of ethanol gas but it here and I ain't got no choice. SO I MAKE IT WORK

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lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:06 am Post subject: Re: 100ll 100% of the time

 	  JohnF wrote: 	
		  Ok, then what should we do? Use 15% ethanol, use 100ll 50% of the time, and 

15% ethanol 50% of time .... my personal hope is that 100ll goes away as 

soon as possible and whatever substitute is made available will be better 

for the 912...high enough octane, no lead...a dream proabably...it won't 

happen until long after I am dead.....I really don't know what to 

do...'washing' ethanol-laced fuel doesn't appeal to me and ethanol-free auto 

gas is no longer available in my area.



Your suggestion?

--- 	




I tend to agree with Roger. Yes, we'll be screwed either way, but I intend to just use the E15 once we're pushed into it rather than a 100% diet of 100LL. 



Ever noticed how our modern cars still run like new at 100K miles now? It's not all because engine tecnhology has gotten better; a lot of that is because we went to unleaded gas back in the early 80's. Before then your engine was pretty much trashed at 100K miles and lead was a big factor in that - I remember having to scrape lead out of spark plugs and eventually the heads on engines back in high school.  I'm glad those days are gone now.



Ethanol will definitely be the lesser of the two evils for sure....



LS

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LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: 100ll 100% of the time

I'm with you guys. I don't like 100LL and I don't care for ethanol either, but since I have to pick one over the other, ethanol wins hands down compared to all the leading. The lead really is the worst choice. I don't see the government getting rid of ethanol so you and I might as well learn to deal with it, but we can do it more on ours terms by making our fuel systems ethanol safe.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: 100ll 100% of the time

The Rotax engine itself is certified by Rotax to operate on up to 10%

ethanol.  It is all the other parts of the fuel system that you can expect

to have problems with.  You said there have been no problems with cars,

motorcycles etc.  I have to call you on that one.  They have had many

problems with the introduction of ethanol.  Sludge in the engine comes free

and gums up the works.  If there is any moisture in the fuel it will eat the

aluminium gas lines and carburettors.  Any guesses what it does to diaphragm

pumps?  



You mentioned kreeming the fuel tanks.  A few years ago an aviation list had

a long discussion in Kreeme coming off the inside of tanks... Talk about a

mess.  The problem as I see it is all these coatings say ethanol resistant.

Not one of them will tell me at least exactly what they mean when they say

resistant.  There can be a world separating resistant and proof.



Finally all that aside there is still the possibility of a phase separation.

Some say it will never happen.  I say never is a long time.  I guess if you

happen to live in death valley that will be a very small possibility but if

you live in a very humid climate as I do then you can expect that any

ethanol fuel you purchase will have already absorbed some level of moisture.

The ethanol fuel itself absorbs so much moisture that all the gas in the

distribution facility is ethanol free.  Ethanol is only added to the gas

when it is put in the truck directly prior to delivery to your service

station.  For that reason I always recommend to people that they use only

fresh, from a very busy station fuel and not leave it in the plane for

extended periods of time.



Noel



--

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:03 pm Post subject: 100ll 100% of the time

I agree with most of what you said except the government getting rid of

ethanol.  Sooner or later they will have no option but get rid of it.



Noel



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Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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