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Washing Ethanol out of Gas
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rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:36 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

93 octane gasoline is a mixture of many things including fuel stocks

and additives.  Some of those additives are required to boost the

octane so our engines don't detonate.



How much of any of these chemicals are being fractionated out of the

fuel along with the ethanol and water?



I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.

I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alcohol

_________________
Ira N224XS

j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:24 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.       I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alcohol



That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject.

 Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.  

The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.  

We can learn a lot from them.



JG 	
  [quote][b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:40 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction.

Graham

From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com>

To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21

Subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.       I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alcohol

That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject.

 Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.  

The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.  

We can learn a lot from them.

JG 	
  [quote]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h

[b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:17 am Post subject: Stop the insanity Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

JC, I am with you.  I have over 1000 hours on Ethanol gas and not had one issue. I have 8 Rotax 2 stroke powered planes at my strip and they all use it and no one has had an issue yet. Some pre mix some injected. 

 

Is it all hogwash or wife's tales ? I not sure. I do know that if they was such a big issue then you would see planes all over the place dead, broken as well as lawn mowers,chainsaws, weed wackers,cars ,jet skis, snowmobiles.  I am still waiting to see this damage that everyone talks about.  Maybe we will soon, who knows. 

 

Some are betting sitting at their keyboard then actually get some realtime flying in it seems. 

 

 

Dave 

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer

Videos using ethanol gas.

_________________
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Snip

How much of any of these chemicals are being fractionated out of the

fuel along with the ethanol and water?



Since the water solubility of those chemicals is for all intents and

purposes nil the chances of washing out other necessary components is next

to nil.  There is a component (chemical) put in the ethanol to prevent

anyone from refining and drinking it, that component is removed with water.

Other than that the most other thing that is removed is dust which

occasionally gets in the gas.



BTW once the ethanol is removed your gascolator will work again.



Noel

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of figures the swear by.Â  The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol.Â  If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine.Â  Adding insult to injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol and helping fuel rocketing inflation.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON

 Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas  

  

  

       

what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction.

 Graham  

    

         

  

From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com>

 To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>

 Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21

 Subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas  

Â I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.  

Â Â Â Â Â  I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alcohol

 

 That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject.

 

   

Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.Â  

 The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.Â  

 We can learn a lot from them.

 

 JG   	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h    	
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:09 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Yes, it shows the effect of having friends in high places, farmers' votes and all that. The weak link in democracy I'm afraid. Even worse here in Europe. 

Sad but there are too many if us on this planet, we need to expand into space before we wreck this place

Graham

From: Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, 18 October, 2010 4:38:57

Subject: RE: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of figures the swear by.  The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol.  If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine.  Adding insult to injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol and helping fuel rocketing inflation.   

Noel   

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON

 Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas   

what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction.

 Graham   

From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com>

 To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>

 Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21

 Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas   

 I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.   

      I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alcohol

 That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject.

Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.  

 The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.  

 We can learn a lot from them.

 JG    	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h        	
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 [quote][b]

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:44 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Why does the gascoator stop working with ethanol?

 

[quote]BTW once the ethanol is removed your gascolator will work again.

  

 Noel



[b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Noel,



I am curious to know where you can fine the list of premium

mogas additives and their oil:water, oil:EtOH partition coefficients.

Many of them are tightly held proprietary secrets.



Obviously they all are soluble in gasoline but that does not exclude

solubility in water or ethanol. I deal with phase solubilities all day

at work (especially olive oil:water pc, and blood:air).



Without the data, I'll stick with my original position and use E15.

If I can find the data, and it looks appropriately low in PC, I'll 

reconsider.

_________________
Ira N224XS

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:23 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Noel,



You are right on!  Ethanol is an extremely poor source of energy for all those reasons.

BTW, MTBE was not an anti-knock compound.  It was an oxygenate to promote more complete burning.  Its use was also strongly opposed by the oil industry because of all the bad properties (carcinogen, etc.) but our Congress mandated its use, enforced by the EPA.  Then when the nasty crap moved into the environment that same Congress and EPA blamed it on the oil companies and forced them to pay for the cleanup.  But then who else would pay for the cleanup?  Congress?  If they pay for it, it just comes out of our taxes so we all pay for it.  No matter what, we all pay for it.

Ethanol was then mandated as a replacement oxygenate.  It also has the associated property of being and anti-knock agent.  Be careful removing the ethanol as you are lowering the octane anti-knock properties of the fuel.



 Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232

http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046

Europa Flying!

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117







 

 

On Oct 17, 2010, at 22:38, Noel Loveys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of figures the swear by.  The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol.  If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine.  Adding insult to injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol and helping fuel rocketing inflation.

 

Noel

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:29 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Noel,



I would be very interesting in reading the paper written by the MIT professors that shows that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. Frankly, I don't believe such a paper exists. But if it does, I would love to read it! Please give me a link to the copy you read.

 



Thanks,

Ken Ryan

Anchorage, Alaska





On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:

 [quote]              

Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of figures the swear by.  The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol.  If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine.  Adding insult to injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol and helping fuel rocketing inflation.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON

 Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas  

  

  

       

what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction.

 Graham  

    

         

  

From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com (j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com)>

  To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)>

 Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21

 Subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas  

 I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.  

      I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alcohol

 

 That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject.

 

   

Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.  

 The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.  

 We can learn a lot from them.

 

 JG   	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h     	
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[b]

pilot(at)ip6.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:12 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

The ratio of 4 is incorrect, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel



"one unit of fossil-fuel energy is required to create 1.3 energy units 

from the resulting ethanol. "



Pollution-wise I think it is bad because you need to burn 2.3 units to 

get 1.3 unit of work



-- Silvano



On 10/18/10 7:26 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Noel,



 I would be very interesting in reading the paper written by the MIT 

 professors that shows that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel 

 to produce one gallon of ethanol. Frankly, I don't believe such a 

 paper exists. But if it does, I would love to read it! Please give me 

 a link to the copy you read.



 Thanks,



 Ken Ryan

 Anchorage, Alaska



 On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca 

 <mailto:noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>> wrote:



     Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a

     series of figures the swear by.  The last figures I saw said that

     it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon

     of ethanol.  If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned

     in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by

     the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst

     filthy fuel that you can imagine.  Adding insult to injury the

     land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol

     and helping fuel rocketing inflation.



     Noel



     From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com

     <mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com>

     [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com

     <mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com>] On Behalf

     Of GRAHAM SINGLETON

     Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM

     To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

     <mailto:rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>

     Subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas



     what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to

     make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane

     is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before

     its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction.

     Graham



     ------------------------------------------------------------------------



     From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com <mailto:j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com>>

     To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

     <mailto:rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>"

     <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

     <mailto:rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>>

     Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21

     Subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas



      I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.



           I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates

     alcohol



     That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject.



     Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.

     The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.

     We can learn a lot from them.



     JG



     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h



       



       



       



     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List



     http://forums.matronics.com



     http://www.matronics.com/contribution



       

     ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

     tp://forums.matronics.com

     _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:49 am Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

While I won't argue with the numbers, I'd be very leery of accepting 

anthhing at face value from Wikepedia when it envolves something as 

political as ethanol fuel.  Anybody can edit thoses articles and throw 

whatever numbers they like.

As I said before, I'm not a big proponent of ethanol as a fuel.  But if 

memory serves, and sometimes it doesn't, didn't Germany use ethanol as 

an all purpose fuel in WWII?  Surely they were smart enough not to burn 

more diesel to make it than they produced?



Ron



On 10/18/2010 11:09 AM, Silvano Gai wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



  The ratio of 4 is incorrect, see:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel



 "one unit of fossil-fuel energy is required to create 1.3 energy units 

 from the resulting ethanol. "



 Pollution-wise I think it is bad because you need to burn 2.3 units to 

 get 1.3 unit of work



 -- Silvano



 On 10/18/10 7:26 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:

> Noel,

>

> I would be very interesting in reading the paper written by the MIT 

> professors that shows that it takes almost four gallons of diesel 

> fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. Frankly, I don't believe such 

> a paper exists. But if it does, I would love to read it! Please give 

> me a link to the copy you read.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Ken Ryan

> Anchorage, Alaska

>

> On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca 

> <mailto:noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>> wrote:

>

>     Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a

>     series of figures the swear by.  The last figures I saw said that

>     it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon

>     of ethanol.  If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned

>     in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by

>     the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst

>     filthy fuel that you can imagine.  Adding insult to injury the

>     land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol

>     and helping fuel rocketing inflation.

>

>     Noel

>

>     From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com

> <mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com>

>     [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com

> <mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com>] On Behalf

>     Of GRAHAM SINGLETON

>     Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM

>     To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

> <mailto:rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>

>     Subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

>

>     what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to

>     make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane

>     is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before

>     its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction.

>     Graham

>

>     

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>     From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com <mailto:j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com>>

>     To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

> <mailto:rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>"

> <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

> <mailto:rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>>

>     Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21

>     Subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

>

>      I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.

>

>           I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates

>     alcohol

>

>     That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this 

> subject.

>

>     Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.

>     The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.

>     We can learn a lot from them.

>

>     JG

>

>     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" 

> target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h

>

>

>     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

>

>     http://forums.matronics.com

>

>     http://www.matronics.com/contribution

>

>     ist" 

> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

>     tp://forums.matronics.com

>     _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

>

>

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Ron,



Yes, Germany developed the Fischer-Tropsch Process to convert coal gas (which is primarily methane) into into various fuels and lubes.  One of the intermediate steps in the process is the generation of methanol (methyl alcohol).  The process can also be used to convert biomass to fuels and lubes.  Unfortunately, it is very expensive and generally only used in extreme situations such as when the allies cut off the supply of Romanian hydrocarbons to the Third Reich.  When you gotta have fuel, you do what is necessary to make it.  Today there are more economical, catalytic, means to convert methane to fuel.  But both these process convert methane to methanol to fuel, not ethanol (grain alcohol) to fuel.  Converting food to fuel is just plain stupid.



Check six,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232

http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046

Europa Flying!

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117

On Oct 18, 2010, at 10:46, Ron Steele wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 While I won't argue with the numbers, I'd be very leery of accepting anthhing at face value from Wikepedia when it envolves something as political as ethanol fuel.  Anybody can edit thoses articles and throw whatever numbers they like.

 

 

 As I said before, I'm not a big proponent of ethanol as a fuel.  But if memory serves, and sometimes it doesn't, didn't Germany use ethanol as an all purpose fuel in WWII?  Surely they were smart enough not to burn more diesel to make it than they produced?

 

 Ron

KeysFox

Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">   when excess water is present the ethanol and water join and settle out together below the gas. This settleout will pass thru a water seperator funnel but the engine will not run on it.When setttleout occurs you have ten percent by volume of what may look like gas when you sump the tanks but kill the engine after take off when it raches the engine.I have had it happen BJ N626NR PA 39N154K Kotfox IIv

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerryFrom:  FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> 

Sender:  owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com 

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:41:20 -0400

To: <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>

ReplyTo:  rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Why does the gascoator stop working with et= hanol?

=A0

[quote]BTW once the etha= nol is removed your gascolator will work again.

 Noel

[b]

_________________
B Jones
N154K
443-480-1023

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:39 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

The water forms a solution with the ethanol which is in a phase relationship with the gasoline.  Because of this any moisture in the fuel will pass through the gascolator with not sign of being there.  Remove the ethanol and there is nothing water can form a solution with so any moisture forms droplets which the gascolator can easily remove.  

   

Noel  

     

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: October 18, 2010 6:11 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas  

  

       

Why does the gascoator stop working with ethanol?  

    

   

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BTW once the ethanol is removed your gascolator will work again.

 

 Noel    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List 	
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Noel Loveys
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

I actually didn't.  I consulted with a friend who ran a commercial

laboratory.  He did all sorts of tests plasma spectroscopy Etc.  He was the

one who described to me the constituents of gasoline.  Apparently there are

several but most of them are either so slightly soluble with water or

completely insoluble.  



One of the things about MOGAS is it is going to be different.  That is from

brand to brand, octane to octane and from season to season.



Noel



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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

All true.  It is my understanding that gasoline with the ethanol removed has an RON of around 87 which is high enough for our engines.  

   

What I’ve been looking for is a way to precipitate the lead out of 100 LL.  Either that or the introduction of an ethanol free, lead free aviation fuel.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger

 Sent: October 18, 2010 10:12 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas  

  

  

   

Noel,    

   

    

You are right on!  Ethanol is an extremely poor source of energy for all those reasons.  

    

   

    

BTW, MTBE was not an anti-knock compound.  It was an oxygenate to promote more complete burning.  Its use was also strongly opposed by the oil industry because of all the bad properties (carcinogen, etc.) but our Congress mandated its use, enforced by the EPA.  Then when the nasty crap moved into the environment that same Congress and EPA blamed it on the oil companies and forced them to pay for the cleanup.  But then who else would pay for the cleanup?  Congress?  If they pay for it, it just comes out of our taxes so we all pay for it.  No matter what, we all pay for it.  

    

   

    

Ethanol was then mandated as a replacement oxygenate.  It also has the associated property of being and anti-knock agent.  Be careful removing the ethanol as you are lowering the octane anti-knock properties of the fuel.  

    

                             

Bob Borger  

    

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop  

    

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232  

    

http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046  

    

Europa Flying!  

    

3705 Lynchburg Dr.  

    

Corinth, TX  76208  

    

Home:  940-497-2123  

    

Cel:  817-992-1117  

    

   

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

       

On Oct 17, 2010, at 22:38, Noel Loveys wrote:  

  



 

       

Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of figures the swear by.  The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol.  If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine.  Adding insult to injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol and helping fuel rocketing inflation.  

    

   

    

Noel  

    

   

  

  

  

  

        [quote][b]

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Noel Loveys
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

Again I didn’t read it I saw it on an interview on the discovery channel about five years ago.  I’d also like to see his data.  He also said a few other things the fact there wasn’t enough land in all of North America, Canada and Alaska included to produce enough ethanol to meet the requirements of the U.S. alone.  

   

Apparently he included all the fuel required to prepare the land for seeding, the actual seeding, the spraying, the harvesting, the shipping of the raw corn, the fermenting process the distillation process and then the transport of the finished ethanol.  His statement was based on so many gallons of ethanol produced per acre of land and having the ethanol mixed with gasoline within so many miles of distillation plant.  

   

Noel  

     

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan

 Sent: October 18, 2010 11:57 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas  

  

   

Noel,    

   

    

I would be very interesting in reading the paper written by the MIT professors that shows that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. Frankly, I don't believe such a paper exists. But if it does, I would love to read it! Please give me a link to the copy you read.  

    

   

    

Thanks,  

    

   

    

Ken Ryan  

    

Anchorage, Alaska  

    

   

    

     

On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:      

Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of figures the swear by.  The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol.  If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine.  Adding insult to injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol and helping fuel rocketing inflation.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON

 Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas  

  

  

       

what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction.

 Graham  

    

         

  

From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com (j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com)>

 To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)>

 Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21

 Subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas  

 I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.  

      I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alcohol

 

 That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject.  

Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.  

 The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.  

 We can learn a lot from them.

 

 JG   	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h   http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution    	
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: Washing Ethanol out of Gas

I have to be honest here I know the Germans did make an ersatz fuel I was

under the impression it was primarily coal oil, and vegetable oils.

Perhaps it did have ethanol in it along with fossil fuel.



I had a friend from Kassel in Germany.  He told me the busses in Germany

were modified to operate on wood gas produced by smouldering wood chips in

the rear of the bus.  He said before going up hills the driver would have to

get out and stoke the fire to produce the gas the diesel engine ran on.  



Noel



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