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jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite
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 Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: Question about Riveting tand the XL Upgrade |
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Hello Zenith Comunity,
Today I had my friend George an experienced RV-6 builder come over to my hanger and help me set rivets for my CH601XL upgrade project. We were using a 3X rivet gun and a 2.5 lb. bucking bar we had little problem shooting the solid MS20470AD-5-11 rivets on the center spar. However, when we turned our attention to the -6/3/16" Diameter rivets for the wing spar upgrade we were having a difficult time making the shop heads the correct diameter and the manufactured head on the rivet was beat up as well.
Overall, the rivets were not acceptable to us: Anyways we took our questions over to our local DAR friend and he advised that probably a 4X and more likely a 5X gun matched with at least a 4-5 lb. bucking bar would do the job satisfactorily. Well my problem lies in the fact that I do not have a 4or 5X gun available and the puneumatic rivet squeezer we borrowed from the DAR could not cleat the newly installed spar angle for the mod.
I guess we are looking at ordering a mess of bolt hardware from ACSpruce if I can't find an easier and acceptable way to set these rivets; has anyone else out there had the same problem? Are your rivets within acceptable aircraft grade standards? I'd be interested in finding out a bit more.
Cheers,
Jeff Paris CH601XL grounded for B Mods Jab 3300 #6-4839 had 300 fun filled hours until grounded
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:49 pm Post subject: Question about Riveting tand the XL Upgrade |
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Jeff
I had the same problem with my 3X gun. Because my wing skins were not yet
riveted in place, I removed the ribs and used what I'd call a "pounder." to
set the rivets. It worked perfectly--until I got sloppy with the hammer and
dinged my spar web. After that, I used a piece of plywood to protect the
spar against my clumsiness. The borrowed pounder that I used is very
similar to pounding on an arbor press as suggested by Tony Bingelis
Metal Spar Assembly Tips, Sport Aviation, May 1993
Which can be found in the EAA site member's only area.
If you check my kitlog site, you'll see how I set the rivets.
If you cannot take your wing apart I think that a 4X or 5X gun is required
to set the rivets. I bought a 7# bucking bar from
http://www.clearairtools.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=93
but ultimately used the pounder, instead. Also, I concluded that the Zenair
supplied rivets were too short to produce shop head that met spec, so I
used longer rivets purchased from Spruce. My guess is that joints using the
Zenair supplied rivets (with shop heads that are either too small diameter
or too flat, take your choice) would be strong enough, but I was more
comfortable making sure that my rivets met mil specs.
Terry
At 05:41 PM 10/30/2010 -0400, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hello Zenith Comunity,
Today I had my friend George an experienced RV-6 builder come over to my
hanger and help me set rivets for my CH601XL upgrade project. We were
using a 3X rivet gun and a 2.5 lb. bucking bar we had little problem
shooting the solid MS20470AD-5-11 rivets on the center spar. However,
when we turned our attention to the -6/3/16" Diameter rivets for the wing
spar upgrade we were having a difficult time making the shop heads the
correct diameter and the manufactured head on the rivet was beat up as well.
Overall, the rivets were not acceptable to us: Anyways we took our
questions over to our local DAR friend and he advised that probably a 4X
and more likely a 5X gun matched with at least a 4-5 lb. bucking bar would
do the job satisfactorily. Well my problem lies in the fact that I do not
have a 4or 5X gun available and the puneumatic rivet squeezer we borrowed
from the DAR could not cleat the newly installed spar angle for the mod.
I guess we are looking at ordering a mess of bolt hardware from ACSpruce
if I can't find an easier and acceptable way to set these rivets; has
anyone else out there had the same problem? Are your rivets within
acceptable aircraft grade standards? I'd be interested in finding out a
bit more.
Cheers,
Jeff Paris CH601XL grounded for B Mods Jab 3300 #6-4839 had 300 fun
filled hours until grounded
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Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;
Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: Question about Riveting tand the XL Upgrade |
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Jeff-
Sorry to hear you're having a tough time with the rivets. I finished my upgrade this past April with about 320 hours on the airframe. We experienced simila rissues initially. We ended up using about 8 pound bucking bar and a 3x gun. My RV friend used the gun and I was on bucking bar. It still took a lot of effort but we did get the rivets in spec even if some of the heads were not as pretty as I'd like.
I've got about 40 hours on the upgrade and all is well-----definitely feel more solid.
George May
601XLB 912s ---369hours
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 17:41:32 -0400
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
From: jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com
Subject: Question about Riveting tand the XL Upgrade
Hello Zenith Comunity,
Today I had my friend George an experienced RV-6 builder come over to my hanger and help me set rivets for my CH601XL upgrade project. We were using a 3X rivet gun and a 2.5 lb. bucking bar we had little problem shooting the solid MS20470AD-5-11 rivets on the center spar. However, when we turned our attention to the -6/3/16" Diameter rivets for the wing spar upgrade we were having a difficult time making the shop heads the correct diameter and the manufactured head on the rivet was beat up as well.
Overall, the rivets were not acceptable to us: Anyways we took our questions over to our local DAR friend and he advised that probably a 4X and more likely a 5X gun matched with at least a 4-5 lb. bucking bar would do the job satisfactorily. Well my problem lies in the fact that I do not have a 4or 5X gun available and the puneumatic rivet squeezer we borrowed from the DAR could not cleat the newly installed spar angle for the mod.
I guess we are looking at ordering a mess of bolt hardware from ACSpruce if I can't find an easier and acceptable way to set these rivets; has anyone else out there had the same problem? Are your rivets within acceptable aircraft grade standards? I'd be interested in finding out a bit more.
Cheers,
Jeff Paris CH601XL grounded for B Mods Jab 3300 #6-4839 had 300 fun filled hours until grounded
[quote]
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject: Question about Riveting tand the XL Upgrade |
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My wings aren't closed so I could just lay the spars on the table. This doesn't apply if you are doing this on partially assembled wings.
At the suggestion of my EAA tech counsoler, here's what I did, and they came out perfectly.
I used the 1 ton arbor press from Harbor Freight ($50) which my counselor loaned me. I drilled the "table" to accept the rivet "cup".
Polish is the bottom of the press. Lay the spar on over the table with the rivet head down in the "cup". Lower the press down onto the rive and apply about as much pressure as you can and then hit with a sledge. I used a 4 pounder. It takes 4 or 5 blows per rivet. I screwed up two when I got in a hurry, but all the rest came out perfectly. I'd say for someone with no experience, the is the cheapest and most foolproof way to set these rivets.
Oh, I also bought a 1/4lb of 1" rivets and a rivet cutter from ACS and used these for practice on Home Depot aluminum until I was confident in the process.
Ron
On Oct 30, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Jeffrey J Paris wrote:
[quote] Hello Zenith Comunity,
Today I had my friend George an experienced RV-6 builder come over to my hanger and help me set rivets for my CH601XL upgrade project. We were using a 3X rivet gun and a 2.5 lb. bucking bar we had little problem shooting the solid MS20470AD-5-11 rivets on the center spar. However, when we turned our attention to the -6/3/16" Diameter rivets for the wing spar upgrade we were having a difficult time making the shop heads the correct diameter and the manufactured head on the rivet was beat up as well.
Overall, the rivets were not acceptable to us: Anyways we took our questions over to our local DAR friend and he advised that probably a 4X and more likely a 5X gun matched with at least a 4-5 lb. bucking bar would do the job satisfactorily. Well my problem lies in the fact that I do not have a 4or 5X gun available and the puneumatic rivet squeezer we borrowed from the DAR could not cleat the newly installed spar angle for the mod.
I guess we are looking at ordering a mess of bolt hardware from ACSpruce if I can't find an easier and acceptable way to set these rivets; has anyone else out there had the same problem? Are your rivets within acceptable aircraft grade standards? I'd be interested in finding out a bit more.
Cheers,
Jeff Paris CH601XL grounded for B Mods Jab 3300 #6-4839 had 300 fun filled hours until grounded
| Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:40 pm Post subject: Question about Riveting tand the XL Upgrade |
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Hi Jeff,
I didn't even try to do the rivets - just put in aircraft bolts and nuts from A/S. I used AN4 (mostly -11 but some -12) bolts where the 3/16 rivets were and AN3 bolts where the smaller rivets were (Maybe AN3-11 but I'm not positive).
The bolts went pretty well. I realized the rivet holes made by Zenair were much too oversized to use the same size bolts as the rivets so I increased all of them one notch. The biggest problem was drilling and reaming the holes where a drill wouldn't fit. I used a flexible extension for the drill and found the extension would last if I used very small increments on the drill size until reaching the final size. Those holes I could ream without interference I did with a chucking reamer. The rest I just used the right size drill and didn't worry about the perfection of the hole interior
Good luck,
Paul
ready to close up second wing upgrade.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey J Paris
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 2:42 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Question about Riveting tand the XL Upgrade
Hello Zenith Comunity,
Today I had my friend George an experienced RV-6 builder come over to my hanger and help me set rivets for my CH601XL upgrade project. We were using a 3X rivet gun and a 2.5 lb. bucking bar we had little problem shooting the solid MS20470AD-5-11 rivets on the center spar. However, when we turned our attention to the -6/3/16" Diameter rivets for the wing spar upgrade we were having a difficult time making the shop heads the correct diameter and the manufactured head on the rivet was beat up as well.
Overall, the rivets were not acceptable to us: Anyways we took our questions over to our local DAR friend and he advised that probably a 4X and more likely a 5X gun matched with at least a 4-5 lb. bucking bar would do the job satisfactorily. Well my problem lies in the fact that I do not have a 4or 5X gun available and the puneumatic rivet squeezer we borrowed from the DAR could not cleat the newly installed spar angle for the mod.
I guess we are looking at ordering a mess of bolt hardware from ACSpruce if I can't find an easier and acceptable way to set these rivets; has anyone else out there had the same problem? Are your rivets within acceptable aircraft grade standards? I'd be interested in finding out a bit more.
Cheers,
Jeff Paris CH601XL grounded for B Mods Jab 3300 #6-4839 had 300 fun filled hours until grounded
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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japhillipsga(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:32 pm Post subject: Question about Riveting tand the XL Upgrade |
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Jeff, I just finished my wings and I used bolts. Easy and better.
--
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