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dan.masys(at)vanderbilt.e
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 Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: Something *not* to use to bond your RV-10 windows |
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Back when I was building my -10 in 2006-7, there was a lot of discussion on this newsgroup about alternatives to Weld-On #10, and one of the epoxy adhesives highly recommended by the Glasair builder community and some RV10 builders was FE6026, because of its ability to bond materials with dissimilar expansion coefficients, including fiberglass, lexan and acrylic. (see: http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=138148&sid=753e5e6cc22788dd55bfd58fbdfc75f5 ). That’s what a I chose for my windows.
Fast forward 420 flight hours TTSN to Friday, 5 Nov 2010 when I was enroute in N104LD from Nashville to Orlando, happy as the proverbial clam cruising above the undercast in blue skies at 13,000 ft. Atlanta Center called and said I either had to go up to 15K or take an amended route around their very large airspace, so I elected to climb to 15K, where the outside air temp was -20C/-4F. Was ripping along at a TAS of 177kts and groundspeed > 200kts, with both cabin heaters going strong. Suddenly there was a large thump and a lot of wind noise from behind the pilot seat, and I looked back to see the left rear window had departed the plane. A few tense minutes ensued while I determined that other than the noise and a new cool breeze in the cockpit, all was well in terms of controllability. In fact, the window blow-out only took a couple of knots off the TAS. I was able to complete the trip safely with an appreciation that an RV10 would make a fine air-to-air camera ship if you happen to remove a rear window. J Luckily, it missed the empennage on its way back and down somewhere over northwestern Georgia.
Pictures of the damage are here:
http://160.129.203.138/rv10/RV10_lostwin_frontview.jpg
http://160.129.203.138/rv10/RV10_lostwind_rearview.jpg
A close examination showed a clean separation between the epoxy glue and the coarse sanded inside surface of the window. Since I have flown the bird a lot at 15-17K I think the difference this day was the exceptionally cold air outside and very hot air coming from the rear heater vents, augmented perhaps by some pressure differential of a tight cabin with all vents closed and both heaters pumping air in to the cabin.
A new window is on order. Suffice it to say, it will be installed with Weld-On #10.
Fly safely friends,
-Dan Masys
RV10 N104LD briefly AOG
RV12 N122LD at the paint shop
[quote][b]
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:59 pm Post subject: Something *not* to use to bond your RV-10 windows |
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I am jumping the gun on this, but I think for those looking for a window or windscreen replacement- ready to plug in... it is in the near future. I saw a request in VAF about a month ago for parts which I jumped on. Thus far if they produce a windscreen as good as their R&D it will be a very nice replacement. Did I mention it is pretty much ready to go with the required fine tuning to fit each plane? that’s right no need to cut off a chunk than fine tune.
I hope to get my windscreen back soon, weather wise they are delayed getting the mold set. When I do I'll give a report if it's worth leaving out the plexi pieces in the kits and going this route. I gain nothing by this other than hopefully helping others in the future. My windscreen,BTW had a 1/4 gap on the sides, which Vans said was normal and could be filled with micro, I thought it was lousy so I am quite happy to see what comes back. There is another builder that provided the sides and canopy and that is expected to be done by December as well.
Wont help Dan but knowing that Weldon is a better option than the FE6026 makes me sure glad I stuck (pun intended) with the Weldon.
More to follow!
Pascal
From: Masys, Daniel R (dan.masys(at)vanderbilt.edu)
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:17 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Something *not* to use to bond your RV-10 windows
Back when I was building my -10 in 2006-7, there was a lot of discussion on this newsgroup about alternatives to Weld-On #10, and one of the epoxy adhesives highly recommended by the Glasair builder community and some RV10 builders was FE6026, because of its ability to bond materials with dissimilar expansion coefficients, including fiberglass, lexan and acrylic. (see: http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=138148&sid=753e5e6cc22788dd55bfd58fbdfc75f5 ). That’s what a I chose for my windows.
Fast forward 420 flight hours TTSN to Friday, 5 Nov 2010 when I was enroute in N104LD from Nashville to Orlando, happy as the proverbial clam cruising above the undercast in blue skies at 13,000 ft. Atlanta Center called and said I either had to go up to 15K or take an amended route around their very large airspace, so I elected to climb to 15K, where the outside air temp was -20C/-4F. Was ripping along at a TAS of 177kts and groundspeed > 200kts, with both cabin heaters going strong. Suddenly there was a large thump and a lot of wind noise from behind the pilot seat, and I looked back to see the left rear window had departed the plane. A few tense minutes ensued while I determined that other than the noise and a new cool breeze in the cockpit, all was well in terms of controllability. In fact, the window blow-out only took a couple of knots off the TAS. I was able to complete the trip safely with an appreciation that an RV10 would make a fine air-to-air camera ship if you happen to remove a rear window. J Luckily, it missed the empennage on its way back and down somewhere over northwestern Georgia.
Pictures of the damage are here:
http://160.129.203.138/rv10/RV10_lostwin_frontview.jpg
http://160.129.203.138/rv10/RV10_lostwind_rearview.jpg
A close examination showed a clean separation between the epoxy glue and the coarse sanded inside surface of the window. Since I have flown the bird a lot at 15-17K I think the difference this day was the exceptionally cold air outside and very hot air coming from the rear heater vents, augmented perhaps by some pressure differential of a tight cabin with all vents closed and both heaters pumping air in to the cabin.
A new window is on order. Suffice it to say, it will be installed with Weld-On #10.
Fly safely friends,
-Dan Masys
RV10 N104LD briefly AOG
RV12 N122LD at the paint shop
[quote]
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: Something *not* to use to bond your RV-10 windows |
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Holy Cow Dan! That's amazing! I thank you for posting that.
You can tell from the photos that while the FE6026 may stick
well to the plexi, it doesn't bond as strongly with the
canopy top. It's a first-hand report that will definitively
illustrate one particular product that won't make a good
substitute for us at least. To me, -4F isn't really all
that unusual....of course, living where I am. In the winter
we're often way colder at altitude than that. But you're
probably right...it is likely the cold that caused it to
shrink and separate.
Again, thanks for reporting! I wonder if the window
was noticed by anyone as it came down...what a shocker
that would be. 
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 11/7/2010 7:17 PM, Masys, Daniel R wrote:
| Quote: | Back when I was building my -10 in 2006-7, there was a lot of discussion
on this newsgroup about alternatives to Weld-On #10, and one of the
epoxy adhesives highly recommended by the Glasair builder community and
some RV10 builders was FE6026, because of its ability to bond materials
with dissimilar expansion coefficients, including fiberglass, lexan and
acrylic. (see:
http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=138148&sid=753e5e6cc22788dd55bfd58fbdfc75f5
<http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=138148&sid=753e5e6cc22788dd55bfd58fbdfc75f5>
). That’s what a I chose for my windows.
Fast forward 420 flight hours TTSN to Friday, 5 Nov 2010 when I was
enroute in N104LD from Nashville to Orlando, happy as the proverbial
clam cruising above the undercast in blue skies at 13,000 ft. Atlanta
Center called and said I either had to go up to 15K or take an amended
route around their very large airspace, so I elected to climb to 15K,
where the outside air temp was -20C/-4F. Was ripping along at a TAS of
177kts and groundspeed > 200kts, with both cabin heaters going strong.
Suddenly there was a large thump and a lot of wind noise from behind the
pilot seat, and I looked back to see the left rear window had departed
the plane. A few tense minutes ensued while I determined that other than
the noise and a new cool breeze in the cockpit, all was well in terms of
controllability. In fact, the window blow-out only took a couple of
knots off the TAS. I was able to complete the trip safely with an
appreciation that an RV10 would make a fine air-to-air camera ship if
you happen to remove a rear window. J Luckily, it missed the empennage
on its way back and down somewhere over northwestern Georgia.
Pictures of the damage are here:
http://160.129.203.138/rv10/RV10_lostwin_frontview.jpg
http://160.129.203.138/rv10/RV10_lostwind_rearview.jpg
A close examination showed a clean separation between the epoxy glue and
the coarse sanded inside surface of the window. Since I have flown the
bird a lot at 15-17K I think the difference this day was the
exceptionally cold air outside and very hot air coming from the rear
heater vents, augmented perhaps by some pressure differential of a tight
cabin with all vents closed and both heaters pumping air in to the cabin.
A new window is on order. Suffice it to say, it will be installed with
Weld-On #10.
Fly safely friends,
-Dan Masys
RV10 N104LD briefly AOG
RV12 N122LD at the paint shop
*
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: Something *not* to use to bond your RV-10 windows |
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Dan, I'm curious whether the window had any cloth tape over the outside edge. Doesn't look like it but curious.
Thanks for the writeup and the excellent pics!
Bill "dreaming of needing O2 while actually needing to paint" Watson
On 11/7/2010 8:17 PM, Masys, Daniel R wrote: [quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Back when I was building my -10 in 2006-7, there was a lot of discussion on this newsgroup about alternatives to Weld-On #10, and one of the epoxy adhesives highly recommended by the Glasair builder community and some RV10 builders was FE6026, because of its ability to bond materials with dissimilar expansion coefficients, including fiberglass, lexan and acrylic. (see: http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=138148&sid=753e5e6cc22788dd55bfd58fbdfc75f5 ). That’s what a I chose for my windows.
Fast forward 420 flight hours TTSN to Friday, 5 Nov 2010 when I was enroute in N104LD from Nashville to Orlando, happy as the proverbial clam cruising above the undercast in blue skies at 13,000 ft. Atlanta Center called and said I either had to go up to 15K or take an amended route around their very large airspace, so I elected to climb to 15K, where the outside air temp was -20C/-4F. Was ripping along at a TAS of 177kts and groundspeed > 200kts, with both cabin heaters going strong. Suddenly there was a large thump and a lot of wind noise from behind the pilot seat, and I looked back to see the left rear window had departed the plane. A few tense minutes ensued while I determined that other than the noise and a new cool breeze in the cockpit, all was well in terms of controllability. In fact, the window blow-out only took a couple of knots off the TAS. I was able to complete the trip safely with an appreciation that an RV10 would make a fine air-to-air camera ship if you happen to remove a rear window. J Luckily, it missed the empennage on its way back and down somewhere over northwestern Georgia.
Pictures of the damage are here:
http://160.129.203.138/rv10/RV10_lostwin_frontview.jpg
http://160.129.203.138/rv10/RV10_lostwind_rearview.jpg
A close examination showed a clean separation between the epoxy glue and the coarse sanded inside surface of the window. Since I have flown the bird a lot at 15-17K I think the difference this day was the exceptionally cold air outside and very hot air coming from the rear heater vents, augmented perhaps by some pressure differential of a tight cabin with all vents closed and both heaters pumping air in to the cabin.
A new window is on order. Suffice it to say, it will be installed with Weld-On #10.
Fly safely friends,
-Dan Masys
RV10 N104LD briefly AOG
RV12 N122LD at the paint shop
================================================
[b]
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philperry9(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:12 am Post subject: Something *not* to use to bond your RV-10 windows |
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It looks to me like the glue stayed on the cabin top, but released from the windows...... Is that what occurred when it broke clean?
Phil
[quote][b]
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dan.masys(at)vanderbilt.e
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: Something *not* to use to bond your RV-10 windows |
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Hi Bill,
No cloth tape over the outside. Just window glued in place and a little microballoon epoxy filler around the edges. This made for a clean separation when it departed. Part of the window that separated from frame but did not break loose showed that the FE6026 had bonded very well to the fiberglass frame of the window, but no speck of it was present on the acrylic. So the failure to bond was with the window, not the fuselage. The window bonding area was scuffed pretty well, but the new window
And the window did hold solidly for 3 plus years and 420 flight hours, with only a tiny microcrack line around perimeter of the window.
And after all, it is Experimental Aviation. Make building decisions, fly, and learn...
-Dan
From:
Bill Watson (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)
Date:
Mon Nov 08 - 12:07 PM
Dan, I'm curious whether the window had any cloth tape over the outside
edge. Doesn't look like it but curious.
Thanks for the writeup and the excellent pics!
Bill "dreaming of needing O2 while actually needing to paint" Watson
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dmaib@me.com
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Something *not* to use to bond your RV-10 windows |
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Dan, thanks for posting this info and the excellent photo's. I came very close to using one of the alternative window bonding products that were being discussed at that time. In fact, I went so far as to purchase the material. I ended up using the Weld-On. With an extra set of hands and lots of attention to having everything set up properly, it was a pretty easy process. There was a lesson that I had to learn more than once during construction. It was this: If you are going to deviate significantly from Van's instructions and processes, think very carefully about unintended consequences. 
I found out the hard way more than once!
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David Maib
RV-10 #40559
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Ron.McGann(at)ausawd.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:54 pm Post subject: Something *not* to use to bond your RV-10 windows |
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I did all the tests and research, including a bonding test with FE6026. None was up to snuff for me. I finally managed to secure and use Weldon 10 and it's the best solution IMHO. The only problem is that Weldon is not available in Oz (or at least it used to be almost impossible to get)- Vans won't ship it overseas and would not even hint at an alternative. Their lack of support on this issue so late in the build process was the only disappointment I had with them in the whole project. So I'm sure there are a number of non US based builders still looking for an alternative.
Cheers
Ron
VH-XRM flying in Oz
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:09 pm Post subject: Something *not* to use to bond your RV-10 windows |
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I've been happy with the Silpruf method. One the one occasion that I
had to remove a window, it was well-adhered to both surfaces.
I used it on the side windows only, not the windscreen.
So far it's been just over 3 years and 700+ hours.
Knock on wood...
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:51 PM, McGann, Ron <Ron.McGann(at)ausawd.com> wrote:
[quote]
I did all the tests and research, including a bonding test with FE6026. Â None was up to snuff for me. Â I finally managed to secure and use Weldon 10 and it's the best solution IMHO. The only problem is that Weldon is not available in Oz (or at least it used to be almost impossible to get)- Vans won't ship it overseas and would not even hint at an alternative. Their lack of support on this issue so late in the build process was the only disappointment I had with them in the whole project. Â So I'm sure there are a number of non US based builders still looking for an alternative.
Cheers
Ron
VH-XRM flying in Oz
--
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