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******* Fire hazzard *****

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wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

***************   Fire  Hazard    *********

  

 Buz, I think this cant wait till the next  newsletter:

  

       Today I had a great  day of flying and just came in from 3 hrs flight and pulled up to the gas pumps.  Got 8.6 gallons and went into the FBO to pay for it and someone came in and said  my plane was on fire.  Smoke was coming from the cockpit and the instrument  panel cover was burning.  

         What  had happened is it was a great day here in New York, bright sun and no  wind.  I had left my canopy up and the sun was directly behind the  aircraft.   The canopy was like a big parabolic reflector and focused  the sun to a nice small spot on the dash.  Thus the fire. Not to much  damage for it was noticed quickly.

         This  happened here in New York, then down south of the Mason Dixie line or warmer  areas it could be more of a problem.

 Tex

   [quote][b]

N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

Hi Tex,

     Good that this was caught right away or the results  could have been much worse.  And thanks to you for posting it.   Very likely your notification on the list will keep someone else from having the  same problem.  In fact, this is not the first example of the  sun using this canopy as a magnifying glass to heat up the glare shield  over the instrument panel.  It actually happened one year at Sun-N-Fun to  one of the Lightning aircraft on display.  Nick or Mark can   cover the specifics, but at least someone was standing close by and noticed  either the smoke or smell before it got out of  hand.  

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

  

  In a message dated 11/13/2010 8:31:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     ***************   Fire    Hazard    *********

   Buz, I think this cant wait till the next    newsletter:

    

         Today I had a    great day of flying and just came in from 3 hrs flight and pulled up to the    gas pumps. Got 8.6 gallons and went into the FBO to pay for it and someone    came in and said my plane was on fire.  Smoke was coming from the cockpit    and the instrument panel cover was burning.  

           What    had happened is it was a great day here in New York, bright sun and no    wind.  I had left my canopy up and the sun was directly behind the    aircraft.   The canopy was like a big parabolic reflector and    focused the sun to a nice small spot on the dash.  Thus the fire.    Not to much damage for it was noticed quickly.

           This    happened here in New York, then down south of the Mason Dixie line or warmer    areas it could be more of a problem.

   Tex

	


  [quote][b]

selwyn

Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: ******* Fire hazzard *****

I notice on another thread that someone has asked if this can happen with the canopy closed.  



My thought is that this can't happen with the canopy closed because it is not a "magnifying glass" effect from sun through the canopy but rather a focused reflection from the inside surface of the canopy.  It occurs when the canopy is up and the sun is in a sector over the tail.



I have had a similar thing happen to me although only to the extent of melting patches of the synthetic covering I have over the glareshield, I didn't actually achieve ignition.



I feel a bit bad about not posting a warning on the subject, although I have included it in an article I am writing for the newsletter, but I'm also irritated that the factory have experienced this behaviour and not passed on a warning.



In speaking to others I have found out that the effect will also occur in Esquals under the right conditions.



The moral of the story is to try and avoid parking your aircraft with the sun behind it any time you are have the canopy open.  In my location (Australia) the glareshield fabric can reach melt temperature in a very short time (1-2 min).  Probably a good idea not to leave paper on the glareshield either.  I've also done a bit of experimenting and found that I can't achieve any sort of focus on the panel itself so instruments and screens are not at risk.

_________________
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66 VH-ELZ

wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:13 pm Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

Selwyn, I to am disappointed that the factory was aware of the possible 

problem and did not put something in the newsletter. It is so important that 

any problem big or small be put in the news for it could save someone the 

expense and down time on their airplane. It just shows everybody how 

valuable the news letters are.

     We are real lucky to have people like Buz and others that manage the 

news for us.



Tex

---

N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

Hey guys, blame it on me.  Actually, if my memory serves me  correctly the incident at Sun-N-Fun happened before I even started  writing the newsletter.  Yep, I should have remembered the incident and put  it in one of the early issues, but didn't remember to do that.  Just too  much on my mind I guess.  

 Sorry bout that, but I will put it in the December issue (the next to last  one that I will write) so that future readers will have that info  available.

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

  

  In a message dated 11/15/2010 8:13:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Lightning-List message posted by: "Tex Mantell"    <wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net>



Selwyn, I to am disappointed that the    factory was aware of the possible 

problem and did not put something in the    newsletter. It is so important that 

any problem big or small be put in the    news for it could save someone the 

expense and down time on their    airplane. It just shows everybody how 

valuable the news letters    are.

     We are real lucky to have people like Buz and    others that manage the 

news for us.



Tex

----- Original    Message ----- 

From: "selwyn" <selwyn(at)ellisworks.com.au>

To:    <lightning-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 12:10    AM

Subject: Re: ******* Fire hazzard *****

 	  Quote: 	
		      --> Lightning-List message posted by: "selwyn"    <selwyn(at)ellisworks.com.au>



 I notice on another thread    that someone has asked if this can happen with 

 the canopy    closed.



 My thought is that this can't happen with the canopy    closed because it is 

 not a "magnifying glass" effect from sun through    the canopy but rather a 

 focused reflection from the inside surface of    the canopy.  It occurs when 

 the canopy is up and the sun is in a    sector over the tail.



 I have had a similar thing happen to me    although only to the extent of 

 melting patches of the synthetic    covering I have over the glareshield, I 

 didn't actually achieve    ignition.



 I feel a bit bad about not posting a warning on the    subject, although I 

 have included it in an article I am writing for    the newsletter, but I'm 

 also irritated that the factory have    experienced this behaviour and not 

 passed on a    warning.



 In speaking to others I have found out that the    effect will also occur in 

 Esquals under the right    conditions.



 The moral of the story is to try and avoid parking    your aircraft with the 

 sun behind it any time you are have the canopy    open.  In my location 

 (Australia) the glareshield fabric can    reach melt temperature in a very 

 short time (1-2 min).  Probably    a good idea not to leave paper on the 

 glareshield either.  I've    also done a bit of experimenting and found that 

 I can't achieve any    sort of focus on the panel itself so instruments and 

 screens are not    at risk.



 --------

 Cheers,  Selwyn

 Kit    66





 Read this topic online    here:



    http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319379#319379





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  [quote][b]

Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:06 am Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

I want to add that this is not particularly a fire hazzard tho it may have  some drama.  It is not easy to get the fiberglass/carbon fiber to  flame.  Soften, yes.

  

 Yes, it is possible to get smoke out of the top of the instrument panel  depending on what material you use on the glare shield, IF you let the canopy  open for a period of time,  IN the direct sunlight, WITH  a  precise angle AND have a material that will smoke when the surface temp  goes up.

  

 It has not been a big secret, it has  happened more than once at  Sun n Fun and OshKosh.   That is the reason the canopies are not left  open when on display during the peak of the summer day.  It requires both  the sun and the canopy to be in a very precise angle and to be left  open. However, Murphy's Law has kicked in occasionally. Leaving the  canopy open for any length of time is not a good idea anyway because of possible  wind damage.

  

 To infer that the smoke will turn to flame or that there has been an  intentional cover-up, or to blame Shelbyville for non-disclosure is a little  over the top.  In my opinion, of course.

  

 My further opinion is that posting OBSERVATIONS  on this list  that may effect others is to be encouraged.  The  CouldaWouldaShoulda.........not so much.

  

 $.02

  

 Doug Koenigsberg

  

  

  

 In a message dated 11/15/2010 8:24:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Hey guys, blame it on me.  Actually, if my memory serves me    correctly the incident at Sun-N-Fun happened before I even started    writing the newsletter.  Yep, I should have remembered the incident and    put it in one of the early issues, but didn't remember to do that.  Just    too much on my mind I guess.  

   Sorry bout that, but I will put it in the December issue (the next to    last one that I will write) so that future readers will have that info    available.

   Blue Skies,

   Buz

    

      In a message dated 11/15/2010 8:13:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,    wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  -->      Lightning-List message posted by: "Tex Mantell"      <wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net>



Selwyn, I to am disappointed that the      factory was aware of the possible 

problem and did not put something in      the newsletter. It is so important that 

any problem big or small be put      in the news for it could save someone the 

expense and down time on their      airplane. It just shows everybody how 

valuable the news letters      are.

     We are real lucky to have people like Buz and      others that manage the 

news for us.



Tex

----- Original      Message ----- 

From: "selwyn" <selwyn(at)ellisworks.com.au>

To:      <lightning-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010      12:10 AM

Subject: Re: ******* Fire hazzard      *****

	


	


 

  

  [quote][b]

wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:34 pm Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

I love it when people put thier 2cent opions on topics on the  list.  I bet they would be totally different if it was thier plane that was  damaged.

  

 P.S fiberglass covered with fabric will not only soften but will burn very  nicely and the flame will effect the canopy its self.

  

 TEX

 [quote]   ---

N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:44 pm Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

Tex,

     How about some photos of the damage on your  airplane to go in the December newsletter.  I for sure want to cover  this potential problem in the newsletter this time and a photo or two always  makes for better coverage. 

 Thanks, Buz

  

  In a message dated 11/17/2010 4:35:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net writes:

 [quote]   I love it when people put thier 2cent opions on topics on    the list.  I bet they would be totally different if it was thier plane    that was damaged.

    

   P.S fiberglass covered with fabric will not only soften but will burn    very nicely and the flame will effect the canopy its self.

    

   TEX

   [quote]     ---

selwyn

Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:46 am Post subject: Re: ******* Fire hazzard *****

I don't want to get into silly "non-disclosure" discussions but it is clear that there are those who are aware of the potential for sun damage to the glare shield and those who are (or were) not.  It would help if those who knew told those who don't, it would have helped if I had posted my experience, it would have helped more if the folks at Arion had posted their much earlier experience,or even better put on their site as an information note so that it was easily accessible.



Buzz, you do a good job with the newsletter, I don't think its your job to dig out the material as well.



It does not require a rare set of circumstances to achieve high temperatures on the glareshield.  It requires canopy open for one to two minutes with the sun maybe 30 degrees either side of the tail to melt the fabric on my plane.  The fabric is automotive trim fabric, not fireproof but not especially delicate either.  That's in spring at mid 30's latitude.  To my mind, bits of my aeroplane melting, producing smoke and possibly igniting is a non trivial occurrence best avoided.



So what to do about it?  Changing the geometry of the canopy is not something you would want to do so its down to taking care how you park the thing and selecting something suitable to cover the glareshield with.  I think I'm going to try some sheepskin.



I'll get some pics of my melted patches tomorrow.

_________________
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66 VH-ELZ

davemcc

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 74

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:49 am Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

What I am trying to figure out is how you can fly around for 3 hrs and only 

need 8 gallons of fuel.

Dave

---

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:00 am Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

I stand corrected by Tex and others in regards to materials used on the  glare shield.

  

 By all means, if you use a material that will ignite on your glare shield,  you are indeed vulnerable to fire.

  

 And that it could happen quickly.

  

 I didn't think about the use of flammable materials in that spot.

  

 By all means, it would behoove Lightning owners and builders to exercise  some caution and thought in their selection of materials and  finishes.   Sufficient ablation is suggested in this location.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg 

  

  

  

 In a message dated 11/17/2010 4:35:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     I love it when people put thier 2cent opions on topics on    the list.  I bet they would be totally different if it was thier plane    that was damaged.

    

   P.S fiberglass covered with fabric will not only soften but will burn    very nicely and the flame will effect the canopy its self.

    

   TEX

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

selwyn

Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:28 am Post subject: Re: ******* Fire hazzard *****

Oh puhleeeeeze.  Ablative material on the glareshield!!!  This is just a simple local heating issue that people need to be aware of, it doesn't require mental gymnastics to pretend that something to simple does not exist.

_________________
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66 VH-ELZ

Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:16 am Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

I apologize to all.

  

 I had just learned a new word and wanted to try it out.   [img]http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/0201d20638/02[/img]

  

 Doug

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 11/19/2010 4:31:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  selwyn(at)ellisworks.com.au writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Oh    puhleeeeeze.  Ablative material on the glareshield!!!  This is just    a simple local heating issue that people need to be aware of, it doesn't    require mental gymnastics to pretend that something to simple does not    exist.



	


 

  

  [quote][b]

n45bm(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:45 am Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

No obliviating on this list! Just kidding, just kidding.

Bernardo



--- On Fri, 11/19/10, Kayberg(at)AOL.COM <Kayberg(at)AOL.COM> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Kayberg(at)AOL.COM <Kayberg(at)AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Re: ******* Fire hazzard *****

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, November 19, 2010, 8:13 AM



      I apologize to all.

  

 I had just learned a new word and wanted to try it out.   [img]http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/0201d20638/02[/img]

  

 Doug

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 11/19/2010 4:31:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  selwyn(at)ellisworks.com.au writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Oh    puhleeeeeze.  Ablative material on the glareshield!!!  This is just    a simple local heating issue that people need to be aware of, it doesn't    require mental gymnastics to pretend that something to simple does not    exist.



	


 

  

   	  Quote: 	
		  www.h href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cot="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">htt   --> 	


	
 [quote][b]

N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:09 am Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

Hey Dougie (the hangar rat), I really enjoy your pugnacious sense of  humor.  How about you doing a monthly section for the newsletter that  introduces us to new words - maybe a "Definitions by Doug" column.  

 Blue skies,

 Buz

  

 PS:  How is the Cub coming along?  Remember the Cub convoy to  Sun-N-Fun this coming year.  

  

  

  In a message dated 11/19/2010 9:16:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  Kayberg(at)AOL.COM writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        I apologize to all.

    

   I had just learned a new word and wanted to try it out.   [img]http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/0201d20638/02[/img]

    

   Doug

    

    

    

    

   In a message dated 11/19/2010 4:31:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,    selwyn(at)ellisworks.com.au writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  

Oh      puhleeeeeze.  Ablative material on the glareshield!!!  This is      just a simple local heating issue that people need to be aware of, it      doesn't require mental gymnastics to pretend that something to simple does      not exist.



	


   

    

 	  Quote: 	
		  



====================================

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m/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com

"http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com

tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

====================================

t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List

====================================

ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

====================================

	
	


  [quote][b]

Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:54 am Post subject: ******* Fire hazzard *****

Hi Buz,

  

 The loquaciousness of my verbosity is often without veracity.    Sorry.

  

 I am very much planning on making the Cub Convoy.  The question is  what will I have ready to fly.  It will likely be either an EAA Biplane  or a VW powered SkyRanger or a Jabiru powered SkyRanger.   But  you never know.

  

 Doug

  

  

  

 In a message dated 11/19/2010 10:10:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Hey Dougie (the hangar rat), I really enjoy your pugnacious sense of    humor.  How about you doing a monthly section for the newsletter that    introduces us to new words - maybe a "Definitions by Doug" column.   

   Blue skies,

   Buz

    

   PS:  How is the Cub coming along?  Remember the Cub convoy to    Sun-N-Fun this coming year.  

    

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

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