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madriver42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: Radio noise

I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway.  I installed an old RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start the "Rotax" it is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether or not this is alternator or ignition.  Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation. Will this cure the problem?  Your valued thoughts please.

   

 Phil Smith

 CH 701 - Flying

 Buhl, ID 

  [quote][b]

VIXEN

Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 35

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: Radio noise

G`morning Phil



I am having a similar problem with my Kitfox Vixen with a 912UL. My radio is a new ICOM A210. I have installed one capacitor on the output from the voltage regulator. This helped but the problem still there but not where I would like it. None of my wiring is shielded and I am wondering if this would help.

 

I hope this topic is of interest to the group. I look forward to ALL suggestions.



Don Hudgeon

Kitfox Vixen

Summerland,BC

Canada



On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Philip Smith <madriver42(at)gmail.com (madriver42(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway.  I installed an old RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start the "Rotax" it is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether or not this is alternator or ignition.  Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation. Will this cure the problem?  Your valued thoughts please.

    

 Phil Smith

 CH 701 - Flying

 Buhl, ID 

   	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

	
[b]

gpabruce(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: Radio noise

You might disable the alternator by lifting the field wire and eleminate one or the other. It is most likely ignition noise (high volatage side). Do you have shielded wires? 

  

 In series or in parallel?  Series doesn't sound right but then I don't know if you are saying what I think you are saying. Series would not allow any current to flow on a DC circuit hense the radio would not work. Parallel would essentially filter out the unwanted noise sending it to ground. 

   

 I should leave my 2 cents out. I don't know, I'm only guessing so don't follow me. It's only a thought. 

  

 Bruce 

 On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Philip Smith <madriver42(at)gmail.com (madriver42(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote] I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway.  I installed an old RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start the "Rotax" it is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether or not this is alternator or ignition.  Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation. Will this cure the problem?  Your valued thoughts please.

   

 Phil Smith

 CH 701 - Flying

 Buhl, ID 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



"_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

	
[b]

gpabruce(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: Radio noise

I need to qualify what I said. There are two potential sources in the radio, (if the radio is the device in question) 

  Noise on the power lead. This can be filtered out out power input with a parallel capacitor.  
Electro Static noise through the antennae caused by high voltage radiation from the high voltage side of the ignition system e.g. coil, high voltage spark plug leads and so on. I just seen some shielded wires and covers for Experimental type engine running regular plugs. I will see if I can find them and include in another post.    

 I would try to identify and isolate the noise first. You may find you have some noise from both sources. As you isolate the problem you have a better chance of fixing it and testing to see if you fixed it. There may be some other device to blame. 

   

 **** First try with the radio with the master on with no engine running to eliminate any non-engine devices. Next easiest: To Isolate the antennae as a source, try grounding it with a alligator clip wire (test lead) to ground. (do not transmit during this test) This should make a noticeable reduction or eliminate completely the radio noise if it's radiation noise from the high voltage ignition. This may be the quickest and easiest method to isolate one source from the other. Simply ground the antennae. Third (not difficult): If you still have noise, disable the alternator next, do you still have the same noise . . . .I hope not . . Let me know how you come out. Once you establish the source(s) of the noise, then it's easier to filter it out with caps and so on. 

   

 Hope this helps.    

  

 Bruce

 On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 5:10 PM, b d <gpabruce(at)gmail.com (gpabruce(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote] You might disable the alternator by lifting the field wire and eleminate one or the other. It is most likely ignition noise (high volatage side). Do you have shielded wires? 

  

 In series or in parallel?  Series doesn't sound right but then I don't know if you are saying what I think you are saying. Series would not allow any current to flow on a DC circuit hense the radio would not work. Parallel would essentially filter out the unwanted noise sending it to ground. 

   

 I should leave my 2 cents out. I don't know, I'm only guessing so don't follow me. It's only a thought. 

  

 Bruce 

  On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Philip Smith <madriver42(at)gmail.com (madriver42(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



  

   	  Quote: 	
		   I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway.  I installed an old RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start the "Rotax" it is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether or not this is alternator or ignition.  Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation. Will this cure the problem?  Your valued thoughts please.

   

 Phil Smith

 CH 701 - Flying

 Buhl, ID 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



"_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

	
	




[b]

rjquillin(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:07 pm Post subject: Radio noise

At 08:47 11/29/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation. 	


 As no one else commented on what seems to be a typo or misunderstanding of terms... 

 That capacitor would be parallel; that is the positive terminal to your buss, and the negative terminal to airframe or whatever you are using for a "ground".



 For a component to be in "series", the load current would flow through the component in series; clearly for DC and a capacitor, this would not work.  Were it a coil, inductor, series would be the proper configuration.



 Ron Q.



     [quote][b]

gpabruce(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:58 am Post subject: Radio noise

Ron,

  

 I'd say you agree with me, right Ron?  I typically like to leave some wiggle room for interpretation so I phrased my observation as a question as opposed to a fact. Some people explain "parallel and series" circuits differently than you and I do. You and I see and explain them the same the correct way.  I'm not trying to be petty or split hairs because it really doesn't matter, I'm only pointing out that I did address the "parallel and series" issue earlier.  See below.

   

 Best regards, Bruce

 On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)cox.net (rjquillin(at)cox.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    At 08:47 11/29/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation. 	




 As no one else commented on what seems to be a typo or misunderstanding of terms... 

That capacitor would be parallel; that is the positive terminal to your buss, and the negative terminal to airframe or whatever you are using for a "ground".

 

	
  

  	  Quote: 	
		   Bruce: 

"In series or in parallel?  Series doesn't sound right but then I don't know if you are saying what I think you are saying. Series would not allow any current to flow on a DC circuit hense the radio would not work. Parallel would essentially filter out the unwanted noise sending it to ground."   (previous post)

 	
  

  

 [quote] 

For a component to be in "series", the load current would flow through the component in series; clearly for DC and a capacitor, this would not work.  Were it a coil, inductor, series would be the proper configuration.

 

Ron Q.  



 	  Quote: 	
		  



"_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

	




[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:53 am Post subject: Radio noise

Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation.



 

  Ron correctly replies: 



  As no one else commented on what seems to be a typo

  or misunderstanding of terms... That capacitor would

  be parallel; that is the positive terminal to your

  buss, and the negative terminal to airframe or

  whatever you are using for a "ground".



  For a component to be in "series", the load current

  would flow through the component in series; clearly

  for DC and a capacitor, this would not work.

  Were it a coil, inductor, series would be the

  proper configuration.



  Ron Q.



   Some people explain "parallel and series" circuits differently than you . . .



   May I suggest that differences in explanation have

   more to do with illuminating the speaker's understanding

   than it does with debating the value of various

   'interpretations'?



   I'll refer the debaters to the Z-figures were there

   are numerous examples of how the subject capacitor

   is wired. I'll also cite every text I've ever

   picked up wherein Ohms law, reactance, and measurement

   of currents and voltages are explained in uniform and

   explicit illustrations for series and parallel connections.



   An exemplar figure from the texts I used at Great Lakes

   Naval Training Schools:



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



 

          This goes to the value of common understanding

          of the words used in language. Without common understanding

  	  Quote: 	
		  

         the useful exchange of

ideas and knowledge cannot take

         place. 



	


   Bob . . .

fb77ea6.jpg

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5099 Time(s)

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:25 am Post subject: Radio noise

----------------

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Philip Smith <madriver42(at)gmail.com> wrote:

I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway.  I 

installed an old RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start 

the "Rotax" it is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether 

or not this is alternator or ignition.  Saw a wiring diagram for 

another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor 

in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine 

installation. Will this cure the problem?  Your valued thoughts please.

----------------

At 11:17 AM 11/29/2010, you wrote:

G`morning Phil



I am having a similar problem with my Kitfox Vixen with a 912UL. My 

radio is a new ICOM A210. I have installed one capacitor on the 

output from the voltage regulator. This helped but the problem still 

there but not where I would like it. None of my wiring is shielded 

and I am wondering if this would help.



     Shielding of wires never fixes a "whine".

     By whine, I presume you're describing a

     sort of musical pitch noise. Further, if

     it rises and falls in pitch with engine RPM,

     it's almost certainly CONDUCTED noise from

     the alternator coming in on the +14V bus

     -OR- or is being injected to a signal or

     power pathway due to poor grounding practice.



     Here's the problem with attempts to remotely

     diagnose and/or suggest prophylactic measures.

     The combinations of engine, radios, and

     intercoms being discussed have been installed

     many, many times before with no reported

     problems.  From this admittedly anecdotal

     observation I deduce that something in the

     problem-systems is DIFFERENT than for the

     historical fleet of similar systems.



     The 'street-wise' suggestions for fixing

     the symptoms will include a sprinkling of

     materials and processes known to have some

     beneficial effects on some noise problem on

     some system at some point in history. But

     as described in the chapter on noise, every

     noise problem has a (1) victim (obviously),

     (2) a propagation pathway and a (3) source.



     Deducing the noise-trinity is a lot like

     playing the board game Clue. In the

     cases before us now, we know (1) and (3).

     The task is to deduce (2). Techniques

     for filling in (2)____________ blank

     are described in the chapter on noise.

     Alternatively, one can ponder a constellation

     of hypotheticals with some assurance that

     EVENTUALLY the noise can be run to ground

     or at least reduced to tolerable levels.

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: Radio noise

At 06:51 PM 11/30/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Okay, whatever! LOL


	


    Read that wrong. My apologies . . .



   Bob . . .

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject: Radio noise

Bob:

 

I feel a bit like I must have early onset Alzheimer’s.   I should have noticed that the description was to wire the capacitor in series on a DC circuit.  As I’m sure you know but others may not, capacitors block DC and pass AC.  So if you have a problem with noise on a DC feed simply put a capacitor from that line to ground and any noise (AC) on that line should be shunted to ground assuming the capacitor is of adequate size.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III

Sent: November 30, 2010 12:20 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Radio noise

 

Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation.

 Ron correctly replies: 



 As no one else commented on what seems to be a typo

 or misunderstanding of terms... That capacitor would

 be parallel; that is the positive terminal to your

 buss, and the negative terminal to airframe or

 whatever you are using for a "ground".



 For a component to be in "series", the load current

 would flow through the component in series; clearly

 for DC and a capacitor, this would not work.

 Were it a coil, inductor, series would be the

 proper configuration.



 Ron Q.



  Some people explain "parallel and series" circuits differently than you . . .



  May I suggest that differences in explanation have

  more to do with illuminating the speaker's understanding

  than it does with debating the value of various

  'interpretations'?



  I'll refer the debaters to the Z-figures were there

  are numerous examples of how the subject capacitor

  is wired. I'll also cite every text I've ever

  picked up wherein Ohms law, reactance, and measurement

  of currents and voltages are explained in uniform and

  explicit illustrations for series and parallel connections.



  An exemplar figure from the texts I used at Great Lakes

  Naval Training Schools:



[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CB90DF.AEE54980[/img]

         This goes to the value of common understanding

         of the words used in language. Without common understanding 	  Quote: 	
		            the useful exchange ofideas and knowledge cannot take         place.    	


  Bob . . .

image001.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

70.01 KB

Viewed:

5089 Time(s)

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:02 am Post subject: Radio noise

Whoa - don't think the capacitor you reference should be installed in series, it should be from the regulator +12V DC  output terminal to DC ground.  Jump in if I have this wrong!

 jerb



 

 At 10:47 AM 11/29/2010, you wrote:

 [quote]I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway.  I installed an old RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start the "Rotax" it is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether or not this is alternator or ignition.  Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation. Will this cure the problem?  Your valued thoughts please.

  

 Phil Smith

 CH 701 - Flying

 Buhl, ID 



 [b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject: Radio noise

Exactly!

Noel

 

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jerb

Sent: December 2, 2010 5:28 AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Radio noise

 

Whoa - don't think the capacitor you reference should be installed in series, it should be from the regulator +12V DC  output terminal to DC ground.  Jump in if I have this wrong!

jerb

At 10:47 AM 11/29/2010, you wrote:

I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway.  I installed an old RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start the "Rotax" it is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether or not this is alternator or ignition.  Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation. Will this cure the problem?  Your valued thoughts please.

 

Phil Smith

CH 701 - Flying

Buhl, ID  	  Quote: 	
		     	
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  [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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