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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: Seals |
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On a recent breakfast run in cold weather ( 40 deg. OAT ) I closed both air vents. Immediately I got a strong odor of exhaust and burned fuel. The only way I believe it could get in the cockpit area is thru the seals around the nose wheel steering rods. Everything else is caulked or sealed tight. Does anyone have an easy way to seal the rods better than the factory slide. I seem to remember someone had a sock or motorcycle / ATV seal that could be adapted to the rods. Anyone have part numbers / photos / or supplier.
Too cold to fly with the vents open.
bobby
Jacksonville, Fl.
Do Not Archive
[quote][b]
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:36 am Post subject: Seals |
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Here is an old message from Ben Haas on the snowmobile boots. They are kind of big and clunky (I have some saved photos I can send you direct):
"This is a two part deal with the bellows to follow the rod travel and the plates to fasten the boots to the firewall. These are from a 2001 Mountain Max snowmobile so you guys down south will get some REAL strange looks from the Yamaha parts counter guy. The boot part number is Yam: 8CR-2198F-00-00 and is labeled a "cover". The plane # is Yam: 8CR2195E-00-00. Because of the existing rivets in the firewall I was only able to attach the plate with three A-5 rivets and a screw on the bottom. You will have to carve out the top flange of the plate to miss two rivets. For those that have not built their firewalls yet you can incorporate the boots using ZAC called for rivet locations. Also the small end of the boot is 3/4" id and our steering rods are 3/8" od. I had some thick wall round aluminum stock laying around and I made some bushings out of that. You guys can use anything to fill up that space. ie/ take some fuel line and slide it over the rods etc etc. Happy building Ben Haas. N801BH."
Craig again - you can make your own boots out of fiberglass cloth and silicone adhesive. Since the rods don't move that far forward fore and aft you don't need the full bellows on the snowmobile boots. There was an article in one of the mags sometime in the past year. I used "Silpat" silicone cookie sheet liners. But the silicone is pretty soft and I suspect they will tear once I start flying. I have seen others made from the fireproof cloth user in racing suits (Nomex) but I think it breaths so you have to coat it.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:43 AM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Seals
List
On a recent breakfast run in cold weather ( 40 deg. OAT ) I closed both air vents. Immediately I got a strong odor of exhaust and burned fuel. The only way I believe it could get in the cockpit area is thru the seals around the nose wheel steering rods. Everything else is caulked or sealed tight. Does anyone have an easy way to seal the rods better than the factory slide. I seem to remember someone had a sock or motorcycle / ATV seal that could be adapted to the rods. Anyone have part numbers / photos / or supplier.
Too cold to fly with the vents open.
bobby
Jacksonville, Fl.
Do Not Archive
0123456789012345678
[quote][b]
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mhubel
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: Seals |
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Bobby,
Even if you do get it that well sealed up, I would be concerned that there is that much exhaust in the area. This could be an indication that there is a leak in the exhaust system or the end of the pipe is too short and allows some exhaust to be blown back.
On 12/06/2010 1:43 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) wrote: | Quote: | p { margin: 0; } List
On a recent breakfast run in cold weather ( 40 deg. OAT ) I closed both air vents. Immediately I got a strong odor of exhaust and burned fuel. The only way I believe it could get in the cockpit area is thru the seals around the nose wheel steering rods. Everything else is caulked or sealed tight. Does anyone have an easy way to seal the rods better than the factory slide. I seem to remember someone had a sock or motorcycle / ATV seal that could be adapted to the rods. Anyone have part numbers / photos / or supplier.
Too cold to fly with the vents open.
bobby
Jacksonville, Fl.
Do Not Archive
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel(at)nemon.com (mhubel(at)nemon.com)
978-443-3955 |
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com |
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steerr(at)bellsouth.net
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: Seals |
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I have a 601HD and sealed my steering rods with a Jeep shifter boot. Works great! I got the idea and directions for doing it from another fellow on this list. Let me try to dig that up. If I find it, I'll respond again.
Bill
On 12/6/2010 1:43 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) wrote: [quote] p { margin: 0; } List
On a recent breakfast run in cold weather ( 40 deg. OAT ) I closed both air vents. Immediately I got a strong odor of exhaust and burned fuel. The only way I believe it could get in the cockpit area is thru the seals around the nose wheel steering rods. Everything else is caulked or sealed tight. Does anyone have an easy way to seal the rods better than the factory slide. I seem to remember someone had a sock or motorcycle / ATV seal that could be adapted to the rods. Anyone have part numbers / photos / or supplier.
Too cold to fly with the vents open.
bobby
Jacksonville, Fl.
Do Not Archive
[b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
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steerr(at)bellsouth.net
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: Seals |
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Found it. Here's his message:
| Quote: | [b]I have a solution for the steering rod sealing which uses a Jeep 4wd dual
rubber boot purchased off of Ebay for about $25. It seals quite well and
matches up nicely with the slots and steering rod travel. Email me direct
if you would like pictures and some fabrication details. Will also try to
post on Matronics enclosure site.
Chuck Long, P.E.
Zodie Rocket HDS
N601LE, 150 hr TT
His email address is charles.long(at)allisontransmission.com (charles.long(at)allisontransmission.com)
Bill
[/b] |
On 12/6/2010 1:43 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) wrote: [quote] p { margin: 0; } List
On a recent breakfast run in cold weather ( 40 deg. OAT ) I closed both air vents. Immediately I got a strong odor of exhaust and burned fuel. The only way I believe it could get in the cockpit area is thru the seals around the nose wheel steering rods. Everything else is caulked or sealed tight. Does anyone have an easy way to seal the rods better than the factory slide. I seem to remember someone had a sock or motorcycle / ATV seal that could be adapted to the rods. Anyone have part numbers / photos / or supplier.
Too cold to fly with the vents open.
bobby
Jacksonville, Fl.
Do Not Archive
[b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:07 pm Post subject: Seals |
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I was having similar thoughts - there just shouldn't be so much exhaust in the engine compartment.
If you can do it, an extension to the exhaust pipe might help. I saw an article in the EAA magazine (perhaps a very old issue) about a home-made muffler that actually ran along the bottom of the fuselage and discharged the exhaust well aft of the passenger compartment.
Another thought - the exhaust might not be coming from the rudder control rods at all. Perhaps there is a vacuum created in the rear of the canopy and the exhaust is coming in from the slip stream around the fuselage.
If you have cabin heat the air flow from it will prevent any vacuum from forming in the cabin. If you don't have cabin heat perhaps you should consider adding it.
Paul
XL - still doing upgrade installation.
From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Hubelbank
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 12:28 PM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Seals
Bobby,
Even if you do get it that well sealed up, I would be concerned that there is that much exhaust in the area. This could be an indication that there is a leak in the exhaust system or the end of the pipe is too short and allows some exhaust to be blown back.
On 12/06/2010 1:43 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) wrote:
List
On a recent breakfast run in cold weather ( 40 deg. OAT ) I closed both air vents. Immediately I got a strong odor of exhaust and burned fuel. The only way I believe it could get in the cockpit area is thru the seals around the nose wheel steering rods. Everything else is caulked or sealed tight. Does anyone have an easy way to seal the rods better than the factory slide. I seem to remember someone had a sock or motorcycle / ATV seal that could be adapted to the rods. Anyone have part numbers / photos / or supplier.
Too cold to fly with the vents open.
bobby
Jacksonville, Fl.
Do Not Archive
[quote]-- Mark HubelbankNorthEast Monitoring2 Clock Tower PlaceSuite 555Maynard, MA, 01754 - USAmhubel(at)nemon.com (mhubel(at)nemon.com)978-443-3955[b]
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:50 pm Post subject: Seals |
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This is very possible, I have noticed that air comes into my cabin from the tail cone and flows out under the gap between the canopy rails and frame. It would cause the boot around the control stick to balloon up before I sealed the gap under the canopy rails.
If your exhaust pipes are very short, the exhaust may flow back along the fuselage and be pulled in through the openings under the horizontal stabilizer and flow back forward through the rudder cable tunnel into the cabin.
On Dec 6, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
| Quote: |
Another thought - the exhaust might not be coming from the rudder control rods at all. Perhaps there is a vacuum created in the rear of the canopy and the exhaust is coming in from the slip stream around the fuselage.
Paul
XL - still doing upgrade installation.
> On 12/06/2010 1:43 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote:
> List
> On a recent breakfast run in cold weather ( 40 deg. OAT ) I closed both air vents. Immediately I got a strong odor of exhaust and burned fuel. The only way I believe it could get in the cockpit area is thru the seals around the nose wheel steering rods. Everything else is caulked or sealed tight. Does anyone have an easy way to seal the rods better than the factory slide. I seem to remember someone had a sock or motorcycle / ATV seal that could be adapted to the rods. Anyone have part numbers / photos / or supplier.
> Too cold to fly with the vents open.
>
>
> bobby
> Jacksonville, Fl.
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.
do not archive.
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_________________
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: Seals |
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I vaguely recall someone going through the exercise of lowering the CO level
in the cockpit of his 601. I believe he found the CO was entering through
the bottom access cover and moving forward.
Another builder (Gary Ray?) installed a muffin fan on the rear wall of his
luggage deck and found that the natural flow would make it spin backwards.
All this indicates the cockpit being an area of low pressure.
-- Craig
--
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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:08 am Post subject: Seals |
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p { margin: 0; }p { margin: 0; }List
Thanks to all who replied about the firewall seals. I have also added an exhaust extension after a severe encounter with Carbon Monoxide. I hope the attached photo is viewable. While circling a friends house in a steep bank and high angle of attack my CO indicator ( installed just the day before ) turned black. I had a serious headache for the next 2 ~ 3 hrs. I now believe some of the fumes are entering thru the belly access door though I get the smell on the ground as well but not as bad. I am planning on sealing the belly access and the canopy rails as well. The opening between the canopy and fuselage rail is about 1/8" but the vacuum will pull a shirt sleeve out if you get to close. I believe the domed canopy puts a very negative pressure in the cockpit thus pulling in whatever gases that may be close to the fuselage.
Still experimenting.
Bobby
112 Hrs
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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mhubel
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:39 am Post subject: Seals |
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Bobby,
For what it is worth, I also has some shirt sleeve tugging and put a strip of thick 3M weather stripping foam around the whole canopy including gaps near the front. It also helps to warm the cabin in the winter.
CO is nasty stuff. Hard to deal with. Even my previous plane a, PA24-260, had some problems with fumes being sucked in through rear vents. There nothing was defective, just a problem if you has the right combination of vents open at the right attitude. Nothing in the POH.
On 12/07/2010 2:03 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) wrote: | Quote: | p { margin: 0; } p { margin: 0; } p { margin: 0; } List
Thanks to all who replied about the firewall seals. I have also added an exhaust extension after a severe encounter with Carbon Monoxide. I hope the attached photo is viewable. While circling a friends house in a steep bank and high angle of attack my CO indicator ( installed just the day before ) turned black. I had a serious headache for the next 2 ~ 3 hrs. I now believe some of the fumes are entering thru the belly access door though I get the smell on the ground as well but not as bad. I am planning on sealing the belly access and the canopy rails as well. The opening between the canopy and fuselage rail is about 1/8" but the vacuum will pull a shirt sleeve out if you get to close. I believe the domed canopy puts a very negative pressure in the cockpit thus pulling in whatever gases that may be close to the fuselage.
Still experimenting.
Bobby
112 Hrs
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel(at)nemon.com (mhubel(at)nemon.com)
978-443-3955 |
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
|
_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com |
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aprazer
Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Seals |
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Greetings from Idaho!
Carbon monoxide is nasty, nasty stuff. I had an encounter with it many years ago when I was a teenager.
Driving an Austin Healey 100-4 on a cold snowy January night, I encountered highway construction. Being a soft-top vehicle, that car had more air-leaks, drafts, etc., I had to wear my ski togs in order to stay warm.
I encountered several pot-holes, evidently puncturing the exhaust muffler.
I didn't make it 50 miles. Sometime after leaving the road, John Law was trying to wake me -- accusing me of being drunk, etc...
Man, was I sick!
The doctors, at the hospital, told me that once poisoned, that you are very susceptible for the rest of your life, to experience the same problem again.
So, BEEEE CAREFUL!
With the problems that are being reported, lately, with carbon monoxide,
it makes me wonder if this could have been the causes of the accidents of past????
Mack
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_________________
The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho |
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