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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:25 pm Post subject: Upgrades or lack there of! |
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As many of you know I have been doing upgrades for the past year and have lost count at this point. But what is the point of doing the upgrade yourself if you are not skilled enough to do it?
After what I have seen between the aircraft that were brought in to the shop before the upgrade and one that was brought in after the upgrade I would venture to say the later would have been safer without the upgrade.
I will be posting photos each day with a caption of what is wrong and how to spot it for buyers of a flying upgraded 601 XL-B.
These photos aren't being posted to embarrass anyone but to merely show what could be the next wave of aircraft that should be safer only to be worse off with the upgrade being installed incorrectly.
The first photo is of the rivets that were bucked incorrectly and will need to be replaced. Not only were they done incorrectly but some of the old rivets are still in the holes that were drilled wrong.
Some of these rivet heads have a gap between them and the aluminum.
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:08 pm Post subject: Upgrades or lack there of! |
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Here is a link to all the photos... http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=39343&id=100000256688371&l=3ecaba3433
They are on face book so you will need a face book profile I think. I would post them to Zenith Aero but it takes too long.
Jeff
In a message dated 12/11/2010 12:22:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Afterfxllc(at)aol.com writes:
Quote: |
As many of you know I have been doing upgrades for the past year and have lost count at this point. But what is the point of doing the upgrade yourself if you are not skilled enough to do it?
After what I have seen between the aircraft that were brought in to the shop before the upgrade and one that was brought in after the upgrade I would venture to say the later would have been safer without the upgrade.
I will be posting photos each day with a caption of what is wrong and how to spot it for buyers of a flying upgraded 601 XL-B.
These photos aren't being posted to embarrass anyone but to merely show what could be the next wave of aircraft that should be safer only to be worse off with the upgrade being installed incorrectly.
The first photo is of the rivets that were bucked incorrectly and will need to be replaced. Not only were they done incorrectly but some of the old rivets are still in the holes that were drilled wrong.
Some of these rivet heads have a gap between them and the aluminum.
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pmchap(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:15 pm Post subject: Upgrades or lack there of! |
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At 01:05 11-12-10, you wrote:
Quite the variety of issues there.
I particularly like the control system nicopress with just 1 crimp mark on it.
Even in today's economy, that's not the way to cut back.
There are parts misaligned, rivets of the wrong length, holes in the wrong places, jaggedly cut pieces, rivets missing, even rivets half way out the edge of some new reinforcement piece. Also all those dings in the spar cap angles.
Even for those errors that really don't make much significant difference in strength or fatigue life, it looks sloppy.
Some issues are a bit subtle though, if one doesn't know the 601 XL mods well. (Like me.) If you got around to it some time, a few brief comments added to the photos would help the less experienced understand those kinds of photos better.
Good stuff to learn from in any case.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC [quote][b]
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psm(at)att.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:09 am Post subject: Upgrades or lack there of! |
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for posting the pictures. I had no trouble accessing them, and I don't think I have a facebook account.
I'm sure I didn't get all the questionable workmanship from looking at the pictures. It is just too tricky to interpret them. I did notice a lot of really ugly work. However, I also noticed some stuff that was nicer than the work I did. One example is the new holes in the rear channel for the weight bar. My holes are much more ragged than the nice square ones in the pictures. Of course my holes have the required rounded corners instead of the sharp ones in the pictures.
I do have some sympathy for the owner of the plane with regard to the crease in the rear of the aileron. I have no idea how to fix such a problem and I suspect we all have, or will have, that sort of problem.
I don't know enough to inspect this plane from the pictures. Still, I'm sure you are correct when you say there are serious problems of workmanship.
If you ever get the time I would like to read any detailed comments you can make on a picture by picture basis.
Just one editorial comment -- I wonder at the decision to have builders start to learn setting solid rivets by reworking the main spars. This was supposed to be a skill that was not needed by a builder to complete a Zodiac XL (or any other Zenith plane?). It isn't covered in the builder's manual and I don't think the update included any instructions for this either. Of course, we all have copies of AC43.13, don't we?
Thanks again,
Paul
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 10:06 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com; zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Upgrades or lack there of!
Here is a link to all the photos...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=39343&id=100000256688371&l=3ecaba3433
They are on face book so you will need a face book profile I think. I would post them to Zenith Aero but it takes too long.
�
Jeff
�
In a message dated 12/11/2010 12:22:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Afterfxllc(at)aol.com writes:
Quote: |
�
�
As many of you know I have been doing upgrades for the past year and have lost count at this point. But what is the point of doing the upgrade yourself if you are not skilled enough to do it?
�After what I have seen between the aircraft that were brought in to the shop before the upgrade and one that was brought in after the upgrade I would venture to say the later would have been safer without the upgrade.
�I will be posting photos each day with a caption of what is wrong and how to spot it for buyers of a flying upgraded 601 XL-B.
�These photos aren't being posted to embarrass anyone but to merely show what could be the next wave of aircraft that should be safer only to be worse off with the upgrade being installed incorrectly.
�
The first photo is of the rivets that were bucked incorrectly and will need to be replaced. Not only were they done incorrectly but some of the old rivets are still in the holes that were drilled wrong.
�
Some of these rivet heads have a gap between them and the aluminum.
�
�
�
�
�
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[quote][b]
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Scotsman
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Posts: 89 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! |
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Does make you feel better about your own work. I think my standard of work is average.
There were some photos where, worryingly, I cannot identify what is incorrect (like the one of the wing walk material), can you post the problem for the less obvious ones?
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:44 am Post subject: Upgrades or lack there of! |
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Paul
If I get time I might add captions to the photo's but a new photo a day with a caption won't overwhelm everyone and it doesn't make the email too big to send.
As for the rear spar cut out. It had a patch piece over the huge hole that you see there and even the patch piece wasn't the greatest.
When I cut mine out I use a drimmel tool with a cutoff wheel and go slightly undersize then widen as needed with a file to clean everything up.
Jeff
In a message dated 12/11/2010 3:09:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, psm(at)att.net writes:
Quote: |
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for posting the pictures. I had no trouble accessing them, and I don't think I have a facebook account.
I'm sure I didn't get all the questionable workmanship from looking at the pictures. It is just too tricky to interpret them. I did notice a lot of really ugly work. However, I also noticed some stuff that was nicer than the work I did. One example is the new holes in the rear channel for the weight bar. My holes are much more ragged than the nice square ones in the pictures. Of course my holes have the required rounded corners instead of the sharp ones in the pictures.
I do have some sympathy for the owner of the plane with regard to the crease in the rear of the aileron. I have no idea how to fix such a problem and I suspect we all have, or will have, that sort of problem.
I don't know enough to inspect this plane from the pictures. Still, I'm sure you are correct when you say there are serious problems of workmanship.
If you ever get the time I would like to read any detailed comments you can make on a picture by picture basis.
Just one editorial comment -- I wonder at the decision to have builders start to learn setting solid rivets by reworking the main spars. This was supposed to be a skill that was not needed by a builder to complete a Zodiac XL (or any other Zenith plane?). It isn't covered in the builder's manual and I don't think the update included any instructions for this either. Of course, we all have copies of AC43.13, don't we?
Thanks again,
Paul
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 10:06 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com; zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Upgrades or lack there of!
Here is a link to all the photos...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=39343&id=100000256688371&l=3ecaba3433
They are on face book so you will need a face book profile I think. I would post them to Zenith Aero but it takes too long.
Jeff
In a message dated 12/11/2010 12:22:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Afterfxllc(at)aol.com writes:
Quote: |
As many of you know I have been doing upgrades for the past year and have lost count at this point. But what is the point of doing the upgrade yourself if you are not skilled enough to do it?
After what I have seen between the aircraft that were brought in to the shop before the upgrade and one that was brought in after the upgrade I would venture to say the later would have been safer without the upgrade.
I will be posting photos each day with a caption of what is wrong and how to spot it for buyers of a flying upgraded 601 XL-B.
These photos aren't being posted to embarrass anyone but to merely show what could be the next wave of aircraft that should be safer only to be worse off with the upgrade being installed incorrectly.
The first photo is of the rivets that were bucked incorrectly and will need to be replaced. Not only were they done incorrectly but some of the old rivets are still in the holes that were drilled wrong.
Some of these rivet heads have a gap between them and the aluminum.
| 01234567890123456
7 |
[quote][b]
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: Upgrades or lack there of! |
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The one with the wing walks were showing the huge gap in the flaps..... with no stops. The flaps are so sloppy they move at least 1 to 11/2 inches.
In a message dated 12/11/2010 8:34:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jaroberts(at)bdo.co.za writes:
Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scotsman" <jaroberts(at)bdo.co.za>
Does make you feel better about your own work. I think my standard of work is average.
There were some photos where, worryingly, I cannot identify what is incorrect (like the one of the wing walk material), can you post the problem for the less obvious ones?
--------
Cell +27 83 675 0815
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322919#322919
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[quote][b]
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Scotsman
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Posts: 89 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! |
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Thanks I was looking at the wing walk area itself. I haven't built the wings yet so don't really know what it should look like yet.
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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psm(at)att.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:42 am Post subject: Upgrades or lack there of! |
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the comment on the cutoff wheel. I never thought of doing it that way. I figured the wheel would fill up with aluminum almost instantly. I reserve use of the wonderful cutoff wheels for steel work. (Have you tried the new quick-change reinforced wheels?)
I usually do that sort of job with some kind of drill (maybe a hole saw) followed with snips. Then I use a cone shaped rotary file in a Dremel to form the general shape (i.e. I cut to the line marked with a Sharpie). The cone shape works really well - you can use the point end for slow cutting and the larger diameter base of the cone for quicker metal removal. Sometimes a hand file gets in the final act to finish it all off - especially the burrs on the edge.
I don't know how to judge the patch piece in the picture. Still, I understand you should never have a sharp inside corner in sheet metal. This tends to focus any forces and tear the metal in the corner to start a possibly long tear in the metal. This problem is fixed with a round feature at the corner that can be made with either a drill bit (before cutting the main hole) or a rat-tail file.
Paul
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:42 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Upgrades or lack there of!
Paul
�
If I get time I might add captions to the photo's but a new photo a day with a caption won't overwhelm everyone and it doesn't make the email too big to send.
�
As for the rear spar cut out. It had a patch piece over the huge hole that you see there and even the patch piece wasn't the greatest.
When I cut mine out I use a drimmel tool with a cutoff wheel and go slightly undersize then widen as needed with a file to clean everything up.
�
Jeff
�
Quote: | ========================== |
[quote][b]
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paulrod36(at)msn.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:40 pm Post subject: Upgrades or lack there of! |
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