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cloudcraft(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:26 am Post subject: DC 10 |
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As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but this scenario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and recurrent I've been through since that crash when the question is asked about engine failure at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed or maintain current speed?
The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain the greater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was trained to do: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained.
In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices retracted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the aircraft would have been controllable at V2 +.
Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more) valid reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure airborne beyond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L over D curves and all that complicated stuff.
Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to point out we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a Twin Commander should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the slowest.
Keith S. Gordon
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
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white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.c
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:11 am Post subject: DC 10 |
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Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F?
From my iPhone 4!
On Dec 13, 2010, at 8:20 AM, "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com (cloudcraft(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but this scenario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and recurrent I've been through since that crash when the question is asked about engine failure at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed or maintain current speed?
The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain the greater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was trained to do: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained.
In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices retracted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the aircraft would have been controllable at V2 +.
Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more) valid reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure airborne beyond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L over D curves and all that complicated stuff.
Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to point out we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a Twin Commander should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the slowest.
Keith S. Gordon
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
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cloudcraft(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:36 am Post subject: DC 10 |
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| Quote: | | Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F? |
The very short answer is, "no." Sorry!
~KG~
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dongirod
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:16 am Post subject: DC 10 |
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I believe for my 560E, it is 90 knots with 110 knots as the best single engine climb speed.
Don
From: Keith S. Gordon (cloudcraft(at)aol.com)
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:26 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: DC 10
| Quote: | | Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F? |
The very short answer is, "no." Sorry!
~KG~
-----Original Message-----
From: White_rhino_ps <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com <commander-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 9:08 am
Subject: Re: DC 10
Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F?
On Dec 13, 2010, at 8:20 AM, "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com (cloudcraft(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but this scenario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and recurrent I've been through since that crash when the question is asked about engine failure at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed or maintain current speed?
The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain the greater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was trained to do: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained.
In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices retracted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the aircraft would have been controllable at V2 +.
Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more) valid reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure airborne beyond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L over D curves and all that complicated stuff.
Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to point out we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a Twin Commander should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the slowest.
Keith S. Gordon
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com (daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com)>
To: commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com (commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:24 am
Subject: DC 10
| Quote: | --> Commander-List message posted by: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com (daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com)>
At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing, he
said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that are not
so.
Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insight
into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in
Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to the
elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of ORD
that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft
taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices on
the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraft to
roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge
devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S could
retract.
As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. Most
DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no 200k
speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life that
have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being one of
them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get
permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I
recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on
weight.
dan farmer
N6369U
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dongirod
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:37 am Post subject: DC 10 |
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Dan
Never having flown the DC-10, I was not aware of the exemption. I remember
in Eastern training in MIA, think it was B-727, and the pilot sped up to
250K after leaving MIA going to Nassau, to which the instructor asked him
about a violation. He stated he was out of the TCA, but what he didn't
realize was when he left MIA TCA he was in Nassau's TCA so he was never
allow to go from 200K to 250 K. I do know that single engine fighters are
exempt due to minimum engine start speeds.
You stated there is no 200K speed restriction in the TCA? I was under the
impression there was a speed restriction within 5 nm (I think) and below
maybe 3,000 ft., is this not so or does it fall under you Ronald Reagan
classification?
Thanks for the info, learn something every day.
Don
Subject: DC 10
At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing,
he
said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that are
not
so.
Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insight
into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in
Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to
the
elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of
ORD
that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft
taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices
on
the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraft
to
roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge
devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S could
retract.
As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
Most
DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no
200k
speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life
that
have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being one
of
them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get
permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I
recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on
weight.
dan farmer
N6369U
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