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Am I the only one to have the kick-back problem?

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Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: Am I the only one to have the kick-back problem?

As there was only one reaction to my post, it seems that only two of us have this recurrent kick-back problem. Based on old threads years ago, that is surprising. That is why I repeat my message below:

 Hi all,I am the unlucky owner of an engine (912ULS) which is prone to kick back on cold starts. During the 6 years and 500 hours of operation I have tried EVERYTHING suggested by the Rotax factory, Rotax distributors worldwide and operators writing on this forum, including the SoftStart module from Conair. All these alleged solutions have had some positive effect such as a reduced occurence of the kick-back and a less violent one, but none of them, even when combined together, managed to withdraw the kick-back completely. 

Now the good news is that Rotax has introduced (at last!) new ignition modules and a new flywheel hub to fix this problem (see SI-912-020 R4). The new ignition modules do exactly what the SoftStart does: they prevent the ignition timing to switch to the 26 degree before TDC as long as the starter motor is activated. In fact the switching to 26 degrees occurs a few seconds after the starter button is released. The new flywheel hub features extended trigger cams giving a 3 degrees after TDC ignition timing during the cranking phase instead of 4 degrees before TDC. Obviously the engine cannot kick back as long as the ignition happens after TDC, so I strongly believe this change is a radical solution to the kick-back problem. I do not need the new ignition modules as I already have the SoftStart. So I will replace the flywheel hub only. 

Here are my questions: 

1. The price of the new flywheel hub is 315 Euros, French VAT included. To avoid spending that amount, I am thinking at modifying the existing hub. I would weld a 7 millimeter extension to the trigger cam trailing edge and machine it on a lathe or adjust it with a file. It is not necessary to modify both cams as only one is used with the SoftStart module, the other one being inactive during the cranking phase. Does anyone know what material (presumably a variety of ferromagnetic steel) the hub is made of? Any suggestion on how to do this cam extension? 

2. Removing the flywheel hub is very easy, even without removing the engine from the aircraft. But a special tool is needed to extract the hub from the crankshaft tapered end. This tool (Rotax P/N 877377) cost 76 Euros VAT included. This is not very expensive but is too much for a tool I intend to use only once! Does any one have this tool available and would lend it to me? Are there many other owners who want to do this mod? If yes we could ask the Europa Club to purchase the tool for use by the members. 

Waiting for your answers 

Regards 

Remi Guerner 

F-PGKL

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europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Am I the only one to have the kick-back problem?

Hi Remi,



I´m too complete enervated by the Kick-back problem and I´m really glad you found an cure to this disease. I think this will be it.

However after all the experiences you have made I would like to await your success in real life.

Please tell us your progress.

Due to the fact th flywheel is turning up to 5800 rpm I would not dare to remove or add any material and would rather spend the 315 Euro.



Regards Juergen

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g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: Am I the only one to have the kick-back problem?

Remi



I for one am not ignoring you and have taken careful note of you useful

contribution.



Sorry but as a 914 owner it is not a problem that I know anything about.

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

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n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: Am I the only one to have the kick-back problem?

Remi,

I have 912S from 2002 that has 680 hours on it, it's new to me so I 

don't know the history. However, it has a soft start module and the only 

time I have any kick back is when it is very cold, 30deg F or lower. I 

might suggest you checking with the rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com and 

see what they have to offer.



Ralph



On 12/16/2010 7:01 AM, Remi Guerner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 As there was only one reaction to my post, it seems that only two of us have this recurrent kick-back problem. Based on old threads years ago, that is surprising. That is why I repeat my message below:

   Hi all,I am the unlucky owner of an engine (912ULS) which is prone to kick back on cold starts. During the 6 years and 500 hours of operation I have tried EVERYTHING suggested by the Rotax factory, Rotax distributors worldwide and operators writing on this forum, including the SoftStart module from Conair. All these alleged solutions have had some positive effect such as a reduced occurence of the kick-back and a less violent one, but none of them, even when combined together, managed to withdraw the kick-back completely.

 Now the good news is that Rotax has introduced (at last!) new ignition modules and a new flywheel hub to fix this problem (see SI-912-020 R4). The new ignition modules do exactly what the SoftStart does: they prevent the ignition timing to switch to the 26 degree before TDC as long as the starter motor is activated. In fact the switching to 26 degrees occurs a few seconds after the starter button is released. The new flywheel hub features extended trigger cams giving a 3 degrees after TDC ignition timing during the cranking phase instead of 4 degrees before TDC. Obviously the engine cannot kick back as long as the ignition happens after TDC, so I strongly believe this change is a radical solution to the kick-back problem. I do not need the new ignition modules as I already have the SoftStart. So I will replace the flywheel hub only.

 Here are my questions:

 1. The price of the new flywheel hub is 315 Euros, French VAT included. To avoid spending that amount, I am thinking at modifying the existing hub. I would weld a 7 millimeter extension to the trigger cam trailing edge and machine it on a lathe or adjust it with a file. It is not necessary to modify both cams as only one is used with the SoftStart module, the other one being inactive during the cranking phase. Does anyone know what material (presumably a variety of ferromagnetic steel) the hub is made of? Any suggestion on how to do this cam extension?

 2. Removing the flywheel hub is very easy, even without removing the engine from the aircraft. But a special tool is needed to extract the hub from the crankshaft tapered end. This tool (Rotax P/N 877377) cost 76 Euros VAT included. This is not very expensive but is too much for a tool I intend to use only once! Does any one have this tool available and would lend it to me? Are there many other owners who want to do this mod? If yes we could ask the Europa Club to purchase the tool for use by the members.

 Waiting for your answers

 Regards

 Remi Guerner

 F-PGKL





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323536#323536

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david steade

Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 32

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:45 am Post subject: Am I the only one to have the kick-back problem?

 	  Quote: 	
		     Remi

    

   A friend had this problem for a long time on a Ban-Bi.    It was ultimately solved by fitting a new sprag clutch. I assume you have the    heavy duty starter motor fitted with a good battery and leads which is the    usual cure.

    

	
  

 Regards

  

 David Steade

  

   [quote][b]

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_________________
David Steade

riddon(at)sent.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:01 am Post subject: Am I the only one to have the kick-back problem?

Remi. 

 

You've probably tried this already but I had this problem until I wired in a push button so that I can start on one mag only. No problems now.

 

Richard Iddon. G-RIXS

  [quote][b]

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n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:01 pm Post subject: Am I the only one to have the kick-back problem?

Remi,

     I too forgot to point out that I use a push button and one mag, the     softstart one, to start.

     

     Ralph

     

     On 12/17/2010 12:59 AM, Richard Iddon wrote:     [quote]                       <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                

Remi.          

          

You've probably tried this already but I had this             problem until I wired in a push button so that I can start             on one mag only. No problems now.         

          

Richard Iddon. G-RIXS       

        	  Quote: 	
		  



	
     [b]

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Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:08 am Post subject: Re: Am I the only one to have the kick-back problem?

Thank you to those who have responded (on and off list) with suggestions I have already tested.... with limited success. Either they have not read my post or they do not believe me when I said I have tried EVERYTHING!



My plan now is to purchase the tooling and rework my flywheel hub to copy the new part introduced by Rotax.

I will let you know how it works.



Remi

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