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Sonex or GP VW.

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captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:31 am Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

Good for you there ain't no cure like piloting your own airplane. If I knew then what I know now I would have bought a VW conversion and would have had my M3X flying already. Its hard to convert a car motor when I am busy with a million other things and have very little time. I may still go and get a Sonex VW as the end cost of the Suzuki conversion even from this point forward may be high enough to justify a Sonex or  GP VW.

A nice motor option is the Simonini Victor 2 super, but like the Hirth over ten grand is simply nuts to spend on that ( with my budget ) . 



---------------------------------



---- John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



=============


Good Point John. We all need to support the New Kolb Aircraft Company.

They need us , and we need them!



Merry Christmas

Dennis



Dennis T/Gang:



Let me update you a little.



There is no "The New Kolb Aircraft Company".



Not sure of their official name but I believe it is "Kolb Company". Brian

wanted his company to look, taste, and smell, like Homer Kolb's aircraft

company. He named it "Kolb Company, Inc." I may not be exact on the

company name, but Travis Brown can correct me if I am wrong.



Brian wants to build and kit airplanes that Homer designed, not fast, slick,

pretty LSA's that fly 120 kts and cost 120,000.00 dollars.



John Hauck

MKIII

Titus, Alabama - Got some air time yesterday. Still flying my mkIII with a

8 months of barn dust and bug/bird crap on it. Amazing how well Kolbs fly

in any condition. I flew over to Wetumpka Airport to get 10 gal of 100LL.

I am not flying much, just yet, and avgas stores much better than mogas and

alcohol.



--

kugelair.com

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:40 am Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

Ron

  

 The Sonex VW engine or AeroVee is a direct drive engine. You can't mount the Valley redrive on that engine. You wouldn't be happy with a direct drive VW on a Kolb. If money is your concern get a dune buggy log block engine and put GP parts on it. You can also use some of the AreoVee stuff but the main thing is avoid the direct drive extended nose crank shafts.

   

 Rick Neilsen

 1st redrive VW Powered MKIIIC 

 On Sat, Dec 25, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Ron (at) KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>

 

Good for you there ain't no cure like piloting your own airplane. If I knew then what I know now I would have bought a VW conversion and would have had my M3X flying already. Its hard to convert a car motor when I am busy with a million other things and have very little time. I may still go and get a Sonex VW as the end cost of the Suzuki conversion even from this point forward may be high enough to justify a Sonex or  GP VW.

 A nice motor option is the Simonini Victor 2 super, but like the Hirth over ten grand is simply nuts to spend on that ( with my budget ) .



---------------------------------



---- John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 

=============

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

Good Point John. We all need to support the New Kolb Aircraft Company.

 They need us , and we need them!



Merry Christmas

Dennis



Dennis T/Gang:



Let me update you a little.



There is no "The New Kolb Aircraft Company".



Not sure of their official name but I believe it is "Kolb Company". Brian

 wanted his company to look, taste, and smell, like Homer Kolb's aircraft

company. He named it "Kolb Company, Inc." I may not be exact on the

company name, but Travis Brown can correct me if I am wrong.

 

Brian wants to build and kit airplanes that Homer designed, not fast, slick,

pretty LSA's that fly 120 kts and cost 120,000.00 dollars.



John Hauck

MKIII

Titus, Alabama - Got some air time yesterday. Still flying my mkIII with a

 8 months of barn dust and bug/bird crap on it. Amazing how well Kolbs fly

in any condition. I flew over to Wetumpka Airport to get 10 gal of 100LL.

I am not flying much, just yet, and avgas stores much better than mogas and

 alcohol.



--

http://www.matronics.com/contribution

                              -Matt Dralle, Li    - The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 :

 b-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List<    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 =   --> h

 

[b]

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:23 pm Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

Rick I went to one of the prop sites where they have that Mach number calculator for the prop speed. It showed that the tips on the 68 inch blade will not go supersonic at full power I think it was 3400 rpm direct drive. Why wouldn't it work? 

You have one on your Kolb with an RDU do you have a photo in Profile that I can look at? I want to see what your install looks like. 

Are you happy with your aircraft performance wise?

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

It would appear that even if the 68" prop didn't go supersonic there would be a drag loss that increases with RPM.

-however, with regard to Rick N and his real experiences,  a VW engine could be built with direct drive that would be 

a decent performer.  

The key consideration would be to ignore the obvious impulse to go big bore.  The only way to get good low rpm performance out

of direct drive is with a stroke larger than the bore.  A long stroke gives a a higher piston velocity for equivalent rpm.

- in other words, simulating higher rpm without actually having higher rpm.  A "case in point" is the Case tractor engine

which also has a very long stroke and huge torque.  ( I have a Case 530)



So if you build a VW engine for aircraft use, use the stoutest stock cylinders available and the longest forged stroker crank you can find.



Don't believe me?  Be my guest.

BB



On 25, Dec 2010, at 3:20 PM, Ron (at) KFHU wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Rick I went to one of the prop sites where they have that Mach number calculator for the prop speed. It showed that the tips on the 68 inch blade will not go supersonic at full power I think it was 3400 rpm direct drive. Why wouldn't it work? 

 You have one on your Kolb with an RDU do you have a photo in Profile that I can look at? I want to see what your install looks like. 

 Are you happy with your aircraft performance wise?

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:55 pm Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

Ron

  

 I know I checked those sites before I installed a 60" prop on my direct drive VW. I do know and my neighbors know a mile away that the tips went supersonic at around 2900 RPM and at 3500 the racket was bad!

   

 The performance difference between my direct drive VW and the redrive VW engine was dramatic. You all ways seem to want more but yes it is working well. I have flown with up to 450 lbs in the seats of my MKIIIC and climb power wasn't an issue. Great Plains did some testing that showed almost twice the static thrust. Some have said that this only helps in slow speed airplanes but the more I learn the more I feel that redrives help even in faster airplanes. A recent article in an EAA magazine talked about setting a speed record with a redrive Rotax 912 in a Soneray. Also I'm currently flying a SportCruiser that has a 100 HP 912 in it that I have to throttle back to 4000 RPM to get it to slow to 80KTS in the pattern. I haven't had a chance to check out high cruise speeds yet but it is fast. I'm sure the reduction drive is a key to some of the speed.   

   

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC 

 On Sat, Dec 25, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Ron (at) KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>

Rick I went to one of the prop sites where they have that Mach number calculator for the prop speed. It showed that the tips on the 68 inch blade will not go supersonic at full power I think it was 3400 rpm direct drive. Why wouldn't it work?

 You have one on your Kolb with an RDU do you have a photo in Profile that I can look at? I want to see what your install looks like.

Are you happy with your aircraft performance wise?

  

 is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click on

 /" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

  http:/r generous support!

 nics List Features Navigator to browse

 s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ==============

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captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:13 pm Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

Thanks

Printed out the photo. Is that a tuned exhaust?

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:56 am Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

Ron

  

 Yes. I purchased a dune buggy tuned exhaust system, cheap and why reinvent anything. I then modified it to fit, trying to keep all the tube lengths the same. I removed the muffler and replaced it with a open pipe. I then sent it out to have it ceramic coated inside and out. I think the system gives me more power and is surprisingly quiet. The exhaust system was built for the engine on its high mount. When I later did the lower engine mount to lower the thrust line, the exhaust extended down into the gap seal a bit.

   

 The system has almost 400 hours on it with no cracking so far. The standard VW joint between the J pipes and the tuned system got loose after a few hundred hours but is was a simple matter of buying a new joint kit and replacing them. My theory is the standard VW exhaust pipe joint allows some movement in the exhaust system to reduce stress on the system yet seal any leaks.

   

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 12:10 AM, Ron (at) KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 [quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>

Thanks

Printed out the photo. Is that a tuned exhaust?

   

 is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click on

 /" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

  http:/r generous support!

 nics List Features Navigator to browse

 s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ==============



[b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Sonex or GP VW.

..."a 60" prop on my direct drive VW. I do know and my neighbors know a mile away that the tipsï¿½went supersonic at around 2900 RPM"....



My Jabiru powered Kolb Slinshot w/ 64" diameter prop reaches about Mach .80 (sea level std day Mach) at my normal cruise speed of 2725-2750 rpm and 85 mph TAS. At WOT straight and level of 95 mph TAS and 3160 RPM, the prop tips are at about .92 Mach. At 10,000' density altitude Mach 1 has decreased in terms of MPH by only 3.5%. I'm having trouble seeing how a shorter prop (by 6.25%) will reach Mach 1 at 3200 rpm at any normal Kolb airspeed, much less 2900. That said, my prop is noisy at 2750 rpm (mach .8 or so) but a whole lot noisier at 3150 rpm.



My Calculations follow:



d = prop dia in inches

pi = 3.1416

r = rpm (prop)

s = airplane true airspeed

RS = Rotational Speed (mph)

TS = Tip Speed (mph) = RS + s

Mach 1 at sea level std day =~ 761 mph



RS = pi x d x r / 1056

RS = 3.1416 x 60 x 2900 / 1056 = ~518 mph 

Tip Speed (TS) at say 85 mph would be  ~603 mph or ~ .79 Mach.



That said, a tip speed above Mach .8 seems to me to get exponentially louder so I would consider that a practical maximum for continuous operation, and one of the reasons I cruise at that speed and not any higher. If I ever need to change props, I will probably go to a shorter one like some of the Jab powered MkIII guys use.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:38 am Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

Thom

 Â 

 I must have stepped on your direct drive toes, SORRY. I'm certainly not a expert but the sound generated by a shock wave or waves that causes a sonic boom can occur in the transonic range which is commonly defined as .8Â - 1.2 mach. Most people would conclude that the object is supersonic when hearing the boom even though it might be below the speed of sound. Props don't make the classic boom rather a very loud roar. I paid $400 for a custom propÂ using thoseÂ same calculationsÂ assuming I was wellÂ below the speed of sound only to have more HP turned into sound than thrust. My next door neighbor standing nose to nose after aÂ very early morning flight would have been happy to hear that you feel that my prop wasn't going supersonic.Â 

  Â 

 I have flown in a Jabiru powered MKIII and it flew much better than my direct drive VW but not as well asÂ a reduction drive VW or a Rotax 912.Â  

 Â 

 The point I was trying to make is that a reduction drive allows us to do many things at once to get theÂ most performanceÂ from our airplanes. We can run our engines at a RPM where they get the most HP. We can select a prop that is the most efficient in producing thrust for the airframe configuration. We can also turn the prop at a RPM whereÂ HP is most efficiently turned into thrust.

  Â 

 Do not archive

 Â 

 Rick Neilsen

 1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

 

..."a 60" prop on my direct drive VW. I do know and my neighbors know a mile away that the tipsï¿½went supersonic at around 2900 RPM"....



My Jabiru powered Kolb Slinshot w/ 64" diameter prop reaches about Mach .80 (sea level std day Mach) at my normal cruise speed of 2725-2750 rpm and 85 mph TAS. At WOT straight and level of 95 mph TAS and 3160 RPM, the prop tips are at about .92 Mach. At 10,000' density altitude Mach 1 has decreased in terms of MPH by only 3.5%. I'm having trouble seeing how a shorter prop (by 6.25%) will reach Mach 1 at 3200 rpm at any normal Kolb airspeed, much less 2900. [b]

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Sonex or GP VW.

Hard to imagine,  a low & Slow Kolb forum and 'Supersonic' in the same sentence.

When I think supersonic I instantly think Jets !

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_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Sonex or GP VW.

Not at all. I would prefer a psru on the Jab but the performance is good for low land operations. Not sure it would be adequate for high DA but that is rarely an issue for me. Just doing the math is all.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:37 am Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

Not at all. I would prefer a psru on the Jab but the performance is good 

for low land operations. Not sure it would be adequate for high DA but that 

is rarely an issue for me. Just doing the math is all.



--------

Thom Riddle



Thom R/Gang:



Please do not take my comments as being derogatory or bad mouthing direct 

drive powered Kolbs.



Direct drive may be good enough for you because that is how your Sling Shot 

is equipped and you have not flown it with any other power.  I have 

flown/demonstrated, at London, KY; Oshkosh and Lakeland; the first SS with 

582, SS's with 80 and 100 horse 912's, but never with a direct drive.  I 

have flown quite extensively with John W when his Kolbra was powered with a 

direct drive Jabiru.  I can assure you all, we did a lot of comparative 

flying between his Jab and my MKIII with 912ULS.  There really was no 

comparison.  When John W repowered with the 912ULS, it was a complete turn 

around.  I felt like I had an anchor tied to me and my 912ULS felt very 

enemic.  More like I was getting half power out of it.



I am not an engineer and I get my results from actually flying the 

airplanes.  Math doesn't fly for me, but airplanes do.  That is the way I do 

it and I have probably one of the quickest, best performing MKIII's that I 

have come in contact with and I have come in contact with many of them over 

the years.  The performance figures you quote on your SS should be much 

better than what I am getting with my fat, wide body MKIII, and would with a 

reduction drive.



Direct drive Kolbs do not do well and have never performed well on any model 

Kolb.



We have tried Subaru's, Jabiru's, VW's, 1/2 VW's, and on and on.  When 

compared to an engine with a reduction drive, there is a marked performance 

increase with reduction drives.



Direct drive engines may perform well on other airplanes, but not Kolbs.



I reempahsize, I am not bad mouthing direct drive Kolbs.  Simply stating 

reality and what works with Kolbs in the real world.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:55 am Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

Rick,

 As a direct drive Kolbster,I could not agree with you more.

 G.Aman

 

   

 

  

   

 

   

 

  --

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Sonex or GP VW.

John H,



Perhaps you did not see this part of what I said. Go back and look, if you did not.



"...I would prefer a psru on the Jab..."



I am aware of the advantages of  a PSRU and that is why I made above statement.



If I am wrong and you DID see it,  then I am confused as to why you would say what you did. There is no pissing contest here as far as I am concerned. I like both Jab and Rptax engines and have owned and operated both happily.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:44 pm Post subject: Sonex or GP VW.

Perhaps you did not see this part of what I said. Go back and look, if you 

did not.



"...I would prefer a psru on the Jab..."



I am aware of the advantages of  a PSRU and that is why I made above 

statement.



If I am wrong and you DID see it,  then I am confused as to why you would 

say what you did. There is no pissing contest here as far as I am concerned. 

I like both Jab and Rptax engines and have owned and operated both happily.



--------

Thom Riddle



Thom R/Gang:



Wasn't trying to pee on you or have a contest to see who could pee the 

furtherest.



Yes, I did read your entire msg and especially this part, "...I would prefer 

a psru on the Jab...".



Perhaps I was trying to inform the members of the Kolb List, and there are a 

bunch of them, how many I do not know, of the differences between flying 

Kolbs with and without reduction drives.  This is not a private conversation 

between a couple members, but information for every member of the Kolb List, 

especially new folks.



Sorry you took my comments as a pissing contest.  That was not my intention.



Again, my opinion and experience, Kolbs do not fly well with direct drive 

engines.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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