Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

I just got this from the latest EAA News Letter. It's a Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin that recommends you retorque VW Heads.  

  

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSAIB.nsf/dc7bd4f27e5f107486257221005f069d/4a6335de983cb8b68625734c006353bc/$FILE/CE-07-43.pdf  

  

I don't know if this has been posted before, it was based on an accident in 2006. I use the Great Plains engine manual as the operating guide for my engine and they recommend you retorque the heads every year as part of the annual inspection. I had the exact thing happen as described in the bulletin on a old VW camper bus years back so I know from personal experience that the head bolts can loosen with age (or maybe the studs stretch?) so I retorque my heads every year. I asked my VW expert that built my engine a while back and he didn't recommend you retorque the heads. He said that most people like to see bolts or nuts turn when they retorque, they cause more problems than they solve. I just bring the torque wrench up to the rated torque and stop. Most of the time the head bolts don't turn but some times they do. I have also had the oil pump nuts turn a bit when checking things. It’s not a bad idea to check as many other engine bolts as you can easily get to every year also. Just don't over torque anything.  

  

Rick Neilsen 

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC 

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:51 am Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

just bring the torque wrench up to the rated

torque and stop. Most of the time the head bolts don't turn but some times

they do.



Rick Neilsen



Rick N/Folks:



I thought you had to back off a nut or bolt, especially one that has been 

torqued for a while, then retorque to get an accurate reading???



If you try to torque without backing off, you may be working against 

seizure/friction caused by age???



john h

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engine

Rick there is even a more serious AD out on the VW engine.  I was notified from Great Planes that the wrist pin keepers may be the wrong part and therefore to small.  When the engine heats up the pistons allow the keepers to fall out and scar the cylinder walls, a real bummer.  He sent me a new set and I pulled the cylinders off to check and sure enough, mine had the wrong keepers installed.  I called Steve, of Great Planes, and thanked him for possibly saving my engine and life.  This AD note covered about a five year time period but don't remember the exact dates.  Anyone that has buildt up one of these engines from them should call and find out if there engine might be at risk.

_________________
Rick Lewis

(VW Watercooled Engine)

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engine

Rick and John, 



I know this is about VW engines but...



Jabiru specifies a head torque CHECK (not re-torque) after first 5 hours, 10 hours and 25 hours. Afterwards at 100 hour or annual. The purpose of the CHECK is to determine if there has been any loosening. Jabiru says NOT to loosen the head bolts and re-torque them, unless they are loose at proper torque setting. If loose, no need to loosen them, just torque up to spec.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:42 am Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

Jabiru specifies a head torque CHECK (not re-torque) after first 5 hours, 

10 hours and 25 hours. Afterwards at 100 hour or annual. The purpose of the 

CHECK is to determine if there has been any loosening. Jabiru says NOT to 

loosen the head bolts and re-torque them, unless they are loose at proper 

torque setting. If loose, no need to loosen them, just torque up to spec.



--------

Thom Riddle



Glad we don't have to go through that drill with the 912 series engines. 

However, I did have a cylinder head loosen and leak on my first 912UL, a 

1993 model.  My other two engines, 912ULS, have not had that problem.  Don't 

know of anyone else that experienced a loose head back then.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engine

...I did have a cylinder head loosen and leak on my first 912UL...



On the two Jabiru 2200 engines I have maintenance experience with, so far the head bolt torque checks I have performed have not found any loosening.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:34 am Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

Rick 

  

 My engine builder installed those teflon plugs instead of the wrist pin keepers. I have heard good and bad about the plugs but at least I don't have to work about my batch of keepers being too small.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



 On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 7:13 PM, Rick Lewis <cktman(at)hughes.net (cktman(at)hughes.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rick Lewis" <cktman(at)hughes.net (cktman(at)hughes.net)>

 

Rick there even a more serious AD out on the VW engine.  I was notified from Great Planes that the wrist pin keepers may be the wrong part and therefore to small.  When the engine heats up the pistons allow the keepers to fall out and scar the cylinder walls, a real bummer.  He sent me a new set and I pulled the cylinders off to check and sure enough, mine had the wrong keepers installed.  I called Steve, of Great Planes, and thanked him for possibly saving my engine and life.  This AD note covered about a five year time period but don't remember the exact dates.  Anyone that has buildt up one of these engines from them should call and find out if there engine might be at risk.

 

--------

Rick Lewis



(VW Watercooled Engine)





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325860#325860

 t Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:52 am Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

John makes a real good point. Should we be backing off a bit and then retorqe? My concern is that VW heads are assembled without any head gaskets. The last thing I would want to do is allow the cylinders to move within the head some and cause a leak that didn't before. Maybe only back off enough to get the nut or bolt to move? Another concern is a nut under a valve cover might become lubricated and be over torqued as a result (seems like torque specks are normally defined as dry unless specified as lubricated). Any thoughts out there???? 

   

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 9:49 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

  



 just bring the torque wrench up to the rated

torque and stop. Most of the time the head bolts don't turn but some times

they do.

Rick Neilsen



Rick N/Folks:

 

I thought you had to back off a nut or bolt, especially one that has been

torqued for a while, then retorque to get an accurate reading???



If you try to torque without backing off, you may be working against

 seizure/friction caused by age???



john h

Titus, Alabama

  

  List Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:10 am Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

 	  Quote: 	
		   My engine builder installed those teflon plugs


	


Can't you use both together?



I have had engines mysteriously lose keepers. Totally ruins the cylinder

reeeel fast.



GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:16 am Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

 	  Quote: 	
		   John makes a real good point. Should we be backing off a bit and then

retorqe? 
	




It worries me too to not retorque. The VW engine likes to be torqued

properly. Some folks on assembly do the final torque of the heads AND the

block at the same time. My engines have held together a purdy good without

this though.



GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

The VW engine likes to be torqued

properly. Some folks on assembly do the final torque of the heads AND the

block at the same time. My engines have held together a purdy good without

this though.



GeoB

 GeoB/Folks:



Were those engines used in an aircraft application?



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

"Some folks" aren't very bright. You torque the case while rotating the crank to make sure a main bearing hasn't jumped off it's locating dowel pin. Piston drag will mask the symptom until damage is done. Good way to ruin parts without even running the engine. 



Rick Girard



On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 11:14 AM, George Bearden <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net (gab16(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Bearden" <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net (gab16(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 > John makes a real good point. Should we be backing off a bit and then

 retorqe?

 

 It worries me too to not retorque. The VW engine likes to be torqued

 properly. Some folks on assembly do the final torque of the heads AND the

 block at the same time. My engines have held together a purdy good without

 this though.

 

 GeoB

 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

 	  Quote: 	
		   "Some folks" aren't very bright.


	


You have passed judgment already?



 	  Quote: 	
		   You torque the case while rotating the crank to make sure a main bearing

hasn't jumped off it's locating dowel pin.
	




If "some folks" are fairly resourceful and careful, might they not have

anticipated this need and provided for it?



 	  Quote: 	
		   Piston drag will mask the symptom until damage is done.


	


Unless someone has anticipated the problem and provided for it.



These VW engines were not used in aircraft applications.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Good way to ruin parts without even running the engine.


	


I bought an expensive Pontiac someone had rebuilt and locked up this way.

When it wouldn't turn over after engine installation they let it sit for a

coupla years then sold it to me for a fraction of its value. WITH an engine

full of new parts.  



Ran good after reassembly.



GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

George, Build four or five VW engines and report back.

Rick

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 8:11 PM, George Bearden <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net (gab16(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Bearden" <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net (gab16(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 > "Some folks" aren't very bright.

 You have passed judgment already?

 > You torque the case while rotating the crank to make sure a main bearing

 hasn't jumped off it's locating dowel pin.

 If "some folks" are fairly resourceful and careful, might they not have

 anticipated this need and provided for it?

 > Piston drag will mask the symptom until damage is done.

 Unless someone has anticipated the problem and provided for it.

 These VW engines were not used in aircraft applications.

 > Good way to ruin parts without even running the engine.

 I bought an expensive Pontiac someone had rebuilt and locked up this way.

 When it wouldn't turn over after engine installation they let it sit for a

 coupla years then sold it to me for a fraction of its value. WITH an engine

 full of new parts.  

 Ran good after reassembly.

 GeoB

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin for VW Engines

 	  Quote: 	
		   George, Build four or five VW engines and report back. 


	


Reporting as requested sir.



Been there, done that. Some I built as hot-rods, some as mpg champs, once as

a wedding gift, always with care.



GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum