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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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 Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:57 am Post subject: Wouldn't it be cool if we could build airplanes this way? |
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... a somewhat different perspective
I was a sophmore in HS in '69 too. I worked for a short time on the floor of a steel mill and spent many years working for a big high tech company. Worked in many functions, departments, and teams. Worked at the bottom of a blast furnace, sales, technical jobs, managed hundreds, worked for dozens, line, staff, etc.
IMHO, generally, management is to blame. The workforce is primarily a reflection of management. Blaming the workforce is like blaming soldiers for losing a battle. Leaders win and lose battles. Soldiers do the work and too often bleed and die.
Working in an old line steel company was an eye opener. Drunks drove the moving equipment, whites did the cleaner skill jobs, blacks did the dirty, poorly paid work. I watched entire railroad cars of material scrapped because no one was really watching or cared. Seemed like the only people you could half way trust were the crane operators because screw-ups could be so bloody and hard to hide. But management was by all accounts, sleep at the helm. Didn't have a clue. Didn't care. The union protected workers from these clueless and uncaring dopes but at the same time insured the industry's death. Personally, I made good money but wouldn't spend it on an American (or Japanese) car given the choice at the time. I particularly liked German engineering and product - first cars and later, aircraft.
Working for a leading high tech company, there was no comparison. Excellence, professionalism, commitment to the business, its employees and its customers all started at the top. Non-performance were simply not acceptable. And when management erred big (and they did from time to time), they were swept out and replaced. It's about effective leadership at all levels. A well led workforce can and will perform.
There are challenges in the American workforce but ironically many of them are a product of our success. The same can be said for our private sector leadership. See Wall Street and our financial sector for a particularly galling example.
Bill "driving a 15 yo Dodge Caravan & a Mazda Miata because everything can be improved" Watson
On 1/10/2011 11:33 AM, Mike Welch wrote: [quote] Bob & guys,
Yes, it would be nice if we could do this, but Ford, and practically everyone else, knows we can't.
Here's a little anecdotal tale why I think we never will;
As a hard working sophomore in high school, around Sept/Oct 1969, I bought a BRAND NEW
1970 Ford Mach 1. It was canary yellow, and a real beauty. I picked it out at the dealer's
receiving yard, it had just been delivered by train to their 'holding' yard". (I made good money as a waiter)
After driving it a couple of months, I let a friend of mine drive it, and he proceeded to punch it,
spin out and smack a curb. Great!! I took it to an alignment shop to check for any damage.
After a thorough check, all was okay. However, what WAS noticeable, and rather telling was, at the top
of the wheel well, obviously written during the car's assembly, someone wrote in white crayon
"FORD STINKS"!!!
I didn't happen to agree with the employee. But his words were revealing.
After spending 95% of my working career as a contractor, about all I've known is self-employment,
and I have had a couple of hundred different employees working for me over a span of 35 years.
My impression and experience of having that many employees is EXACTLY that of the Ford Corp. I
have had employees deliberately; steal my equipment, steal my customers, destroy my equipment,
sleep on the job after I leave, claim hours of work they didn't do, and dozens of other methods of
sabotage.
It's a sad fact, but the American workforce has brought the mass-exodus of corporations on themselves.
It will never get any better, either. (My apologies for straying off the electronics forum....blame Bob)
Mike Welch
[b]
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longg(at)pjm.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: Wouldn't it be cool if we could build airplanes this way? |
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… hey, you guys are really old J
In ’69 I was in the 3rd grade trying to slip notes to the brunette 3 rows up (and not get caught). I do remember the cars though and flying over the red sky of Pittsburgh. So red in the morning, we thought it looked neat! Imagine.
I’m on board with the management theory. You know they say if you want to run a successful business, hire people like yourself. I have found this to be particularly true in small numbers. In large companies there needs to be a dictatorship atmosphere such that everyone essentially has the fear of god standing on the other side of the cube. I work in high tech too and BS walks. Sink or swim here for the most part. If you are worth your salt and enjoy your work, everybody is happy.
In most circles people will agree WW2 was a great motivator for Industry and Americans alike. By 1969, most of the momentum had burned off. The dollar was no longer pegged to gold and the stock market barely moved. By that time the miles and miles of Bethlehem Steel were just waste lands of scrap that the Japanese were keenly starting to recycle. Recycle? What, we’re Americans, we don’t do stupid stuff like that.
Had America spent the 60’s & 70’s preparing for the future instead of living in the past, we’d all be better off today. My town, Philadelphia was about two steps away from final corruption and becoming a permanent slum city. Unions were horrible to industry and vice versa.
Into 1978 I worked in meat packing plant on Patterson Avenue. I remember employees hiding bottles of their favorite beverage between the tires of the rows of abandoned tractor trailers out back. They would take their breaks by the tracks and have a smoke by the trash ridden railroad while pig slop oozed into the creek. We had reached the bottom.
America continually requires re-invention. Capitalism requires re-invention. Were losing the battle right now, but if we care we can make it right.
The biggest problem today is a reactionary media and market system. To make things right with things like the economy, we need to make strong decisions about policy which is neither favorable or easy. We must make those decisions without causing huge rallies or downturns in the market created by this hyper sensationalism so common in the media.
That’s easy to say but hard to do. The slightest word of unemployment change or increase in inflation (even .01) cause shear panic in the marketplace. OMG, sell out today – this is it.
I always tell my wife, by the time these idiots stop talking about whether or not the economic recovery will be slow, it will be over. I joke about economists today. If states, “it you tied all of the worlds economists together you’ll still not have a conclusion.”
Glenn E. Long
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 2:54 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Wouldn't it be cool if we could build airplanes this way?
... a somewhat different perspective
I was a sophmore in HS in '69 too. I worked for a short time on the floor of a steel mill and spent many years working for a big high tech company. Worked in many functions, departments, and teams. Worked at the bottom of a blast furnace, sales, technical jobs, managed hundreds, worked for dozens, line, staff, etc.
IMHO, generally, management is to blame. The workforce is primarily a reflection of management. Blaming the workforce is like blaming soldiers for losing a battle. Leaders win and lose battles. Soldiers do the work and too often bleed and die.
Working in an old line steel company was an eye opener. Drunks drove the moving equipment, whites did the cleaner skill jobs, blacks did the dirty, poorly paid work. I watched entire railroad cars of material scrapped because no one was really watching or cared. Seemed like the only people you could half way trust were the crane operators because screw-ups could be so bloody and hard to hide. But management was by all accounts, sleep at the helm. Didn't have a clue. Didn't care. The union protected workers from these clueless and uncaring dopes but at the same time insured the industry's death. Personally, I made good money but wouldn't spend it on an American (or Japanese) car given the choice at the time. I particularly liked German engineering and product - first cars and later, aircraft.
Working for a leading high tech company, there was no comparison. Excellence, professionalism, commitment to the business, its employees and its customers all started at the top. Non-performance were simply not acceptable. And when management erred big (and they did from time to time), they were swept out and replaced. It's about effective leadership at all levels. A well led workforce can and will perform.
There are challenges in the American workforce but ironically many of them are a product of our success. The same can be said for our private sector leadership. See Wall Street and our financial sector for a particularly galling example.
Bill "driving a 15 yo Dodge Caravan & a Mazda Miata because everything can be improved" Watson
On 1/10/2011 11:33 AM, Mike Welch wrote:
Bob & guys,
Yes, it would be nice if we could do this, but Ford, and practically everyone else, knows we can't.
Here's a little anecdotal tale why I think we never will;
As a hard working sophomore in high school, around Sept/Oct 1969, I bought a BRAND NEW
1970 Ford Mach 1. It was canary yellow, and a real beauty. I picked it out at the dealer's
receiving yard, it had just been delivered by train to their 'holding' yard". (I made good money as a waiter)
After driving it a couple of months, I let a friend of mine drive it, and he proceeded to punch it,
spin out and smack a curb. Great!! I took it to an alignment shop to check for any damage.
After a thorough check, all was okay. However, what WAS noticeable, and rather telling was, at the top
of the wheel well, obviously written during the car's assembly, someone wrote in white crayon
"FORD STINKS"!!!
I didn't happen to agree with the employee. But his words were revealing.
After spending 95% of my working career as a contractor, about all I've known is self-employment,
and I have had a couple of hundred different employees working for me over a span of 35 years.
My impression and experience of having that many employees is EXACTLY that of the Ford Corp. I
have had employees deliberately; steal my equipment, steal my customers, destroy my equipment,
sleep on the job after I leave, claim hours of work they didn't do, and dozens of other methods of
sabotage.
It's a sad fact, but the American workforce has brought the mass-exodus of corporations on themselves.
It will never get any better, either. (My apologies for straying off the electronics forum....blame Bob)
Mike Welch
- The AeroElectric-List Email Forum utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List[/b] - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS via the Web --> http://forums.matronics.comstyle='mso-spacerun:yes'> - List Contribution Web Site style='mso-spacerun:yes'> Thank you for your generous style='mso-spacerun:yes'> -Matt style='mso-spacerun:yes'> --> http://www.matronics.com/c=[/b] [b]
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ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:54 pm Post subject: Wouldn't it be cool if we could build airplanes this way? |
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Well said. Now gentlemen, can we return to electrics?
RF
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 11:54 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Wouldn't it be cool if we could build airplanes this way?
... a somewhat different perspective
[quote] [b]
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Terry Watson
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:03 pm Post subject: Wouldn't it be cool if we could build airplanes this way? |
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With the skillful use of the delete key, you can edit the list to whatever you want it to be. I enjoyed the diversion and very much appreciate the excursion Bob started us on. Not to say that I agreed with some of the conclusions, but they were well stated and based on experience.
Terry
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Finch
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 1:46 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Wouldn't it be cool if we could build airplanes this way?
Well said. Now gentlemen, can we return to electrics?
RF
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 11:54 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Wouldn't it be cool if we could build airplanes this way?
... a somewhat different perspective
[quote][b]
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