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EFIS / EIS combo units
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dredmoody(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 6:04 pm    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Has anyone in the group used any of the EFIS / EIS combo units? If so, =
which brand and model? Any problems and were they solved? Particularly, =
has anyone had good results with the Dynon D-100 or D-180? How about =
Advanced Flight Systems 3400 or 3500? I would like to use a combination =
unit backed by steam gauges for ASI, Tach, and electric turn =
coordinator. My gps can serve well enough as the back-up ALT. Any =
constructive comments and advice are welcome. Advice based on actual =
experience would be even better. I want a cross country VFR capability, =
not an IFR ready panel.

Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / wings


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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

I have one of these (but have only flown it around my desk):

http://www.mglavionics.co.za/ (Manufacture)
http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html (US
Distributor)

The dealer and manufacturer have been *very* supportive of my odd-ball
requests. Brandon Tucker has one too but I am pretty sure he has not flown
yet.

Nice large display but only black and white. Less expensive than the color
units.

I finally got to see one of the Dynon units in direct sunlight at Sun-N-Fun.
Pretty good IMHO. I also spoke with AFS at the show and looked at the
3400/3500. Very new (I don't think they ship until June). The head of the
company say that they use a much faster CPU than Dynon and that their
display is brighter. Their previous engine-monitor-only product is well
regarded and I like its voice announcements of alarms (also in the 3000
series I believe). I would expect some teething pains with the 3000 series.
Not a problem if you won't be flying until later in the year. All of these
units allow you to update their software.

-- Craig


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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 6:40 pm    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

I have flown my HDS for 400 hours and am finishing up an IFR RV 7a
complete with Dynon D100 and EMS D10...They look great but have not
flown them yet.

Purely personally I think an EFIS for a 601 is way overkill, especially
if you have steam guage backup. The EMS however maybe a good fit as the
total cost (as long as it is a good fit for your engine...all the
sensors available etc) could be similar to a steam guage
setup...certainly having fuel consumption information has been one of
the most useful tools I have had in the cockpit,....I had a JPI
flowscan.

Anyway, back to the EFIS. With my extensive flight experience I can tell
you a much more useful toy would be a Pictoral pilot (autopilot). I mean
if you think about it, why do you want an artificial horizon and
DG?....Yeah I know you could inadvertantly stray into bad weather but if
you had an A/P you simply hit the engage knob and the A/P will
immediately level the wings. You then punch in the nearest button on
your handheld and the GPS will drive the A/P to take you anywhere you
want to go....Or turn the knob to dial up a new heading and the thing
will turn the airplane around for you with better control than you could
probably manage.

Thus the A/H and DG are simply not used.

Even better the Pictoral pilot has a turn coordinator head that actually
works (unlike real turn coordinators), I.e the TC always agrees with the
real horizon....So junk that steam guage as well.

I can tell you for a cross country airplane an A/P will be just stinking
wonderful, much better than hand flying...The EFIS just gives you
another screen that you'll never use to be honest 'cus you'll be looking
out the window, but you will still have to hand fly it...With the A/P
you can keep looking out the window cus the GPS will be flying the
airplane....Sweet

Frank
HDS 400 hours



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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 8:44 pm    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Hi Frank,

Your autopilot solution is great for someone willing to bet his life
and his passenger's life that some computer software can fly a plane
better than he can. For me, a good gyro or two sounds a lot more attractive.

Paul
XL wings
do not archive

Quote:
Yeah I know you could inadvertantly stray into bad weather but if
you had an A/P you simply hit the engage knob and the A/P will
immediately level the wings. You then punch in the nearest button on
your handheld and the GPS will drive the A/P to take you anywhere you
want to go....Or turn the knob to dial up a new heading and the thing
will turn the airplane around for you with better control than you could
probably manage.

---------------------------------------------


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taffy8706(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

JFK Jr. and the two girls would probably be alive today it John Jr. had done as Frank suggests---- Fritz

Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Hi Frank,

Your autopilot solution is great for someone willing to bet his life
and his passenger's life that some computer software can fly a plane
better than he can. For me, a good gyro or two sounds a lot more attractive.

Paul
XL wings
do not archive

Quote:
Yeah I know you could inadvertantly stray into bad weather but if
you had an A/P you simply hit the engage knob and the A/P will
immediately level the wings. You then punch in the nearest button on
your handheld and the GPS will drive the A/P to take you anywhere you
want to go....Or turn the knob to dial up a new heading and the thing
will turn the airplane around for you with better control than you could
probably manage.

---------------------------------------------


---------------------------------
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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 6:17 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Ya...His gyros didn't do him much good did they?..

Frank

Do not archive

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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 6:17 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

But that's exactly what the EFIS is... A box of computuer software that
gives you a visual representation of the horizon...there is no
difference between than and an A/P.

Well OK there is in that the software is driving a servo to keep the
plane upright...In either case if the software fails you got the same
problem.

Remember the Pictoral Pilot has a visual output just like the EFIS...If
the servo quit then you can hand fly it from the turn coordinator
head...One that actually works in the case of the A/P.

If you think you want a real Gyro then you had better forget the EFIS
too and go buy a vacuum pump!

Remember also we are talking about a BACKUP situation...I.e under VFR
you should never been in bad weather in any case. Your just looking for
the one in a thousand solution to get you out of trouble.

Like I said you'll never use the EFIS anyway (that's real life 400 hours
of experience) so why not buy something that's both cheaper and that you
will most definatly use on cross country flying?

Frank

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Daniel Vandenberg



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 6:57 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Mr Mulwitz...

Have you read William Wynne's Thursday night update at http://www.flycorvair.com/hangar.html ? Please read "The Fan Club" near the bottom of the page.

Dan

Do not archive

Hi Frank,

Your autopilot solution is great for someone willing to bet his life and
his passenger's life that some computer software can fly a plane better
than he can. For me, a good gyro or two sounds a lot more attractive.

Paul
XL wings
do not archive


---------------------------------
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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 7:44 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Perhaps you are right. Certainly they would have survived the night
if John Jr. had not started the flight for which he was certainly
unqualified. Even an autopilot can't fix fatal judgement errors.

Paul
XL wings
do not archive

Quote:
JFK Jr. and the two girls would probably be alive today it John Jr.
had done as Frank suggests---- Fritz

Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net> wrote: --> Zenith-List
message posted by: Paul Mulwitz


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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 7:48 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Wow...great website...But I didn't see any eference to an EFIS...did I
miss something?

Frank
Do not archive

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 7:56 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Now I am really confused. I thought you were suggesting using the
autopilot for EFIS backup. Now it seems you recommend the autopilot
instead of the EFIS.

I am lost on the cost issue too. I thought the autopilot cost about
twice the price of the EFIS and perhaps 10 times the cost of a single gyro.

What actual set of hardware are you suggesting for VFR use? Also,
why are you suggesting the need for an autopilot for cross country
flight in a docile plane like an XL? It is not twitchy like your
HDS, and should stay put with proper trim settings.

Paul
XL wings
do not archive

P.S A vacuum pump and turn and bank indicator would be a
satisfactory set of equipment for inadvertent IFR survival and would
cost less than $1000 total. You need some sort of altimeter and
airspeed indicator anyway.

At 07:12 AM 5/7/2006, you wrote:

Quote:
If you think you want a real Gyro then you had better forget the EFIS
too and go buy a vacuum pump!

Remember also we are talking about a BACKUP situation...I.e under VFR
you should never been in bad weather in any case. Your just looking for
the one in a thousand solution to get you out of trouble.

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naumuk(at)alltel.net
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 8:07 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

The Trio Avionics AP takes this a little farther. If you hold down a button
for 3 seconds the AP will execute a 180 degree turn. As a low-time VFR pilot
with almost zero time under the hood I *do* have more confidence in the AP
not getting disoriented in a cloud than me. The Trio AP also will display a
turn coordinator.

www.trioavionics.com

-- Craig


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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Quote:
> I'm not crazy about the prospect of tearing my outboard wings back down
to retrofit AP servos.


If you are building an XL then you don't have to. Generally they sit behind
the seats. See:

http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/craig(at)craigandjean.com.02.11.2006/

Or as a tiny URL:

http://tinyurl.com/n9aze

-- Craig


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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Yes INSTEAD of..

A Pictoral Pilot costs about $1800 (that's $100 off retail that the
dealers often have it on sale for).

This model has a turn coordinator output that has a solid state gyro
(just like the EFIS) that always agrees with the real horizon.

I'm not suggesting it's a NEED at all, just that it would be a very
useful upgrade and do the same job as the EFIS (also not a need),
especially as you intend to back it up with an ASI and altimeter steam
guage.

As I said for VFR you loking out the window...But IF you got into cloud
both the EFIS or the A?P would work for you, except on a X country
instead of following the little airplane on your handheld, the A/P will
be following it for you.

In my case I have flown 400 hours with just an ASI and altimeter and a
TC that would probably kill me the first time I tried to use to get out
of the clouds.

Frank

Do not archive

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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

The servo on the HDS servo goes behind the seats...No tearing apart of
wing panels ...Smile

Frank

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 6:52 pm    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Hi Frank,

Your autopilot solution seems to only solve desires rather than
needs. The EFIS solution provides required functions like altimeter
and airspeed, and the combined unit also provides the required tachometer.

The EFIS units provide all sorts of gyro functionality on top of the
required panel functions. I think the low end ones may do this for
less cost than the required functions alone when implemented with
steam guages. That makes the gyro capability free from my warped
point of view.

I don't see any need for steam gauge backup for VFR flight. If the
EFIS unit craps out then you just have to fly by looking out the big
picture window in front of you. If you can't fly without an airspeed
indicator or altimeter then I suggest you bring your battery powered
GPS along or get some instruction in seat-of-the-pants airplane flying.

In the case of IFR flight I would insist on vacuum backup gauge
capability along with old fashioned altimeter and possibly
tachometer. Perhaps your autopilot would fill this need, but only if
you have not experienced a complete power failure that wiped out all
your electric gizmos.

Paul
XL wings
At 02:28 PM 5/7/2006, you wrote:
Quote:
I'm not suggesting it's a NEED at all, just that it would be a very
useful upgrade and do the same job as the EFIS (also not a need),
especially as you intend to back it up with an ASI and altimeter steam
guage.

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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

The original post was all about wants rather than needs.

The original post was about using an EFIS WITH steam guage backup. In MY
warped thinking that is over the top as a backup to the EFIS is simply
not necessary.

So if we are simply at personal choice then my argument is for a VFR
cross country airplane an A/P with two steam guages is a more useful
setup than an EFIS with steam guage backup.

I know what EFIS does, I have one in my RV panel...Its fantastic but I
also know I'll probably only look at it flying IFR.

I also said in my original post that an EMS (if it is a good fit to the
engine) would be a reasonable choice. As you know you can buy the EMS
separate to the EFIS, or buy it combined.

If I was going for a combined unit then yes a combined EFIS/EMS but
WITHOUT steam guage backup might be a cost effective choice...If so yeah
sure go for it, but the original post clearly said EFIS WITH steam guage
backup. My sole effort has been to point out this is way overkill and a
Pictorial pilot is more useful than an EFIS as long as you have the
steam guage alt and ASI.

As for a vacuum pump ... I would rather rely on a solid state
electronic backup...lIke you said my A/P is the backup to the
EFIS....Which has a battery backup...I wouldn't have a vacuum pump as a
gift!

Frank
Do not archive

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

Frank,

It sounds like we are in violent agreement. It is a shame that
English is such a difficult way to communicate.

One question on the autopilot. If you lose aircraft power, does the
battery backup in the A/P have sufficient power to operate the
controls or is it merely enough to display the gyro information?

Perhaps I am out in left field on the vacuum pump issue. Many people
I have discussed this with in person take the same position that you
do. My requirement for vacuum backup for IFR is consistent with
legacy certified plane construction. I am also concerned with
complete electrical failure such as might happen with a lightning
strike. I don't know why so many people think vacuum pumps have cooties . . .

Paul
XL wings
do not archive
Quote:
As for a vacuum pump ... I would rather rely on a solid state
electronic backup...lIke you said my A/P is the backup to the
EFIS....Which has a battery backup...I wouldn't have a vacuum pump as a
gift!

-


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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 8:22 am    Post subject: EFIS / EIS combo units Reply with quote

I have not seen an A/P with battery backup power. To be honest this has
not bothered me that much because I run an electrically dependant
airplane anyway (i.e 2 electric fuel pumps, normally only one wouild be
running at a time in cruise) so a lightening strike = much bigger
problems potentially.

The other point is with an electrically dependant airplane there are
easy ways to provide a redundant system for the whole airplane. If you
wanted to backup the A/P you can simply buy a very small lead acid
battery (like 1.2AH) to run the A/P. This battery is then charged from
the airplane alternator with a diode (preferably a shotkey diode for
$25) in the feedline...That way if there is a major short in the ships
power the backup battery won't backfeed the fault and the A/P will
continue to fly your airplane.

I use a similar setup for my second fuel pump and second electronic
ignition.

As to vacuum pumps they have a pretty high failure rate and rough
turbulence does not do much good for the gyros either. Bob at the aero
electric connection (who is a real guru on this stuff) had a friend of
his killed when his vacuum system failed in IFR. The bigger cooties I
think is the limited life and high cost of ownership of mechancial
gyros/pumps.

I think you will find the reason vacuum pumps and gyros are certified
(also some solid state units are now too but they are very spendy) is
the natural pace of Government beurachracy and the fact the
certification costs are out to lunch. That's why most of the
Experimental electronics suppliers are saying on their home pages they
have no intention of going for FAA certification.

The upside with experimental systems is you get bang up to date
technology with firmware upgrades that you can down load off the web and
update your EMS/EFIS/A/P and even your electronic igniton on Lycomings,
all this via your Laptop...very slick!

If it were certified I believe each upgrade would need
certification...Real life has moved on for this to work I think.

Is lightening a big enough issue to design our panels/airplanes?...good
question. I wonder what would happen to a composte airframe if it was
struck by lightening...Would it even be flyable???

Frank

Do not archive

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