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Buss Bar

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grosseair(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject: Buss Bar

I know copper is generally used, but is there any reason NOT to use 

aluminum to construct a ground buss bar?



John Grosse

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:06 pm Post subject: Buss Bar

At 09:27 PM 1/18/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I know copper is generally used, but is there any reason NOT to use 

aluminum to construct a ground buss bar?


	


   How do you plan to attach wires to it?



   The bus bar designs suggested by AeroElectric

   Connection and B&C products go to some lengths

   to reduce threaded fasteners to a minimum. There

   are none on the panel ground bus . . . and only

   the fat wires are brought to threaded studs.

   Bob . . .

grosseair(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:25 am Post subject: Buss Bar

A combination of threaded studs for the large wires and riveted fast on 

connectors for the rest.

John



Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>



 At 09:27 PM 1/18/2011, you wrote:

> 

> <grosseair(at)comcast.net>

>

> I know copper is generally used, but is there any reason NOT to use 

> aluminum to construct a ground buss bar? 



   How do you plan to attach wires to it?

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:44 am Post subject: Buss Bar

I was also thinking... you may also be able to find a nicopress crimper the

right size to close the lugs.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: Buss Bar

At 09:15 AM 1/19/2011, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Grosse <grosseair(at)comcast.net>



 A combination of threaded studs for the large wires and riveted fast on connectors for the rest. 	


   Rivets are designed for use in shear, not in tension.

   Further, your fast-on lugs are no doubt going to be

   of a material dissimilar to the bus bar.



   Suggest you go to a hardware store or hobby shop

   and get a chunk of sheet brass or better yet copper.

   Roofing companies often have scraps of copper flashing

   around from which you can get a suitable piece. Also

   check around on Ebay.



  http://tinyurl.com/5sa26kp 



   Here's a nice chunk of .062" sheet that you can

   shear up for what you need and offer lots of similar

   chunks to other builders.



   Use copper pop-rivets to fixture the fast-on

   lugs and then solder using electronic 63/37

   solder.



   There are ways to do the best we know how to

   do at minimal time and dollars but bolting up

   an array of terminals on a piece of aluminum is

   not the best we know how to do.



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

grosseair(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:10 pm Post subject: Buss Bar

Bob, I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you saying that aluminum is 

unsuitable for some reason or just that copper or brass is better? I'm 

not questioning your opinion. I'm just interested in the "why" one works 

or doesn't work.

John

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 09:15 AM 1/19/2011, you wrote:

> 

> <grosseair(at)comcast.net>

>

> A combination of threaded studs for the large wires and riveted fast 

> on connectors for the rest.

   Rivets are designed for use in shear, not in tension.

   Further, your fast-on lugs are no doubt going to be

   of a material dissimilar to the bus bar.

   Suggest you go to a hardware store or hobby shop

   and get a chunk of sheet brass or better yet copper.

   Roofing companies often have scraps of copper flashing

   around from which you can get a suitable piece. Also

   check around on Ebay.

 * http://tinyurl.com/5sa26kp*

   Here's a nice chunk of .062" sheet that you can

   shear up for what you need and offer lots of similar

   chunks to other builders.

   Use copper pop-rivets to fixture the fast-on

   lugs and then solder using electronic 63/37

   solder.

   There are ways to do the best we know how to

   do at minimal time and dollars but bolting up

   an array of terminals on a piece of aluminum is

   not the best we know how to do.

   Bob . . .

 *

 *

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: Buss Bar

Different Bob here, but---



What Bob is saying is that first of all it's very difficult to keep aluminum

clean enough for a good "gas tight" connection as it oxidizes almost

instantly after it is cleaned and aluminium oxide is an excellent insulator.

Secondly the assembly method you are proposing using rivets is unsuitable

because a rivet is not designed to provide the tension in a joint which you

require to get the necessary "gas tight" joint. Rivets are designed to be

loaded in shear. Thirdly the dissimilar metals in your connections will

almost certainly result in galvanic corrosion within the joints when you

join the copper wires/lugs/bolts to the aluminium bars. Where and when

aluminium is used for current carrying purposes great pains are taken to

alleviate the above issues through the use of special compounds within the

joints, such as Burndy's penetrox. (see http://tinyurl.com/4gnx4q7) The

above factors are why the attempt to use aluminium wires for household

wiring in the 60's was such a failure and resulted in many homes burning

down. The difficulties in getting reliable joints are significant whereas

using copper or brass there are no such problems.



Bob McC



[quote] --

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

grosseair(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:45 am Post subject: Buss Bar

Thanks, Bob. I get it.

John



Bob McCallum wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Different Bob here, but---



 What Bob is saying is that first of all it's very difficult to keep aluminum

 clean enough for a good "gas tight" connection as it oxidizes almost

 instantly after it is cleaned and aluminium oxide is an excellent insulator.

 Secondly the assembly method you are proposing using rivets is unsuitable

 because a rivet is not designed to provide the tension in a joint which you

 require to get the necessary "gas tight" joint. Rivets are designed to be

 loaded in shear. Thirdly the dissimilar metals in your connections will

 almost certainly result in galvanic corrosion within the joints when you

 join the copper wires/lugs/bolts to the aluminium bars. Where and when

 aluminium is used for current carrying purposes great pains are taken to

 alleviate the above issues through the use of special compounds within the

 joints, such as Burndy's penetrox. (see http://tinyurl.com/4gnx4q7) The

 above factors are why the attempt to use aluminium wires for household

 wiring in the 60's was such a failure and resulted in many homes burning

 down. The difficulties in getting reliable joints are significant whereas

 using copper or brass there are no such problems.



 Bob McC

    

>

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:00 am Post subject: Buss Bar

Do not archive



Along the same timeframe that aluminum was being tried in house wiring, it

was also being used in some diesel locomotives.  In that application, the

failure produced what were likely some of the world's highest wattage arc

lights.  Unlike the housing industry, the nature of that beast is such that

the failures caused little collateral damage.  Over time, those

installations were replaced with copper.



Glen Matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne

ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: Buss Bar

In the late 60's I was working for Kaiser Aluminum when one of their 

engineers successfully bonded copper bar to aluminum bar stock. This was a 

great cost saver in the aluminum manufacturing plants when sending the high 

voltage from the power plant to the furnace.



I didn't work in that area and I don't know how successful it was in 

practice.



Do not archive.

---

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: Buss Bar

At 06:08 PM 1/22/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>



In the late 60's I was working for Kaiser Aluminum when one of their 

engineers successfully bonded copper bar to aluminum bar stock. This 

was a great cost saver in the aluminum manufacturing plants when 

sending the high voltage from the power plant to the furnace.



I didn't work in that area and I don't know how successful it was in practice.


	


   actually, there's a class of copper clad aluminum

   wire used to make up large bundles of high current

   conductors. Eric Jones offers some light-weight

   alternatives to the 2 and 4 awg all copper choices.



http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm



   I've played with this stuff and for all practical

   purposes it solders and crimps like copper wire

   but without the dissimilar metal issues. The

   wire is also much finer strands than those wires

   used in early attempts to "aluminize" the fat

   wires in airplanes. This makes the wire much

   more flexible and resistant to stress cranking

   under flexure.



   I think Hawker Beech is using some copper clad

   aluminum on the production line. So yes, I believe

   bus bars made primarily of aluminum with copper

   connecting surfaces fused to the aluminum would

   have been quite practical.

   Bob . . .

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