teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:53 pm Post subject: Engines-List: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filte{rrÞs |
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Did you, by any chance, see the article in Aviation Consumer where they sent a half dozen or so samples to 5 different companies for analysis? Only one company picked up on the fact that one sample was from a car. They all had different results.
From: "pautenried(at)gmail.com" <pautenried(at)gmail.com>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:55:22 PM
Subject: Engines-List: Re: Re: Oil Filte{rrÞs
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Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerryFrom: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net>
Sender: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:49:00 -0500
To: <engines-list(at)matronics.com>
ReplyTo: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
Just to complete the story of the Cherokee 235 with the broken ring. The 235 had a Lycoming O-540, a six cylinder engine de-rated to 235 hp.
It had been our procedure to send an oil sample for analysis at every oil change. So, we had a well documented baseline when we got an abnormal analysis. The analysis company who had done our previous analyses noted it immediately and notified us by telephone even before we received the detailed analysis by mail. They told us that the result, because of higher than normal iron and aluminum, and some other elements unique to the rings, that it probably was a broken ring.
If there was a drop in compression on one out of six cylinders it was not noticed in the performance of the engine and it was not normal practice to do a compression test between annuals without some reason.
This experience was a clear cut justification and stone simple reinforcement for the minimal inconvenience and trivial expense of having an oil analysis at each oil change. What more evidence would anyone need to become a believer???
And, why would anyone argue vehemently against such a simple, inexpensive monitor of engine health??
Rich
On 1/20/2011 11:34 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: | Quote: |
With the damage you describe it would have to show up in an oil analysis. This is a clear place where charting the results from change to change would have been helpful.
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As for oil analysis being a waste of time and money it sure is, if you don’t keep up the schedule and don’t bother to chart the results.
Â
Oil analysis will show problems that you won’t catch in a filter but what does it hurt to open a filter and have a look at the medium? If you find anything it could save you lot$ of $$$ before an analysis is returned.
Â
On oil changes the short of it is more is better but filter changes are probably more important. Especially if your engine has a pressure by pass on the filter.
Â
Noel
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From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
Sent: January 20, 2011 3:37 PM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
Â
Quote  "  Flash forward to 1999.  Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on his plane . . .  give or take a few.  At 1999 hrs, he opted for a LyCon overhaul.  When the owner brought me his plane, he told me, "This should be an easy overhaul.  I don't want anything fancy like port and polish or anything else.  Just the basic overhaul.  I've set aside about $18,000 to cover the costs."
Â
Engine comes off and goes to Lycon. Â I told Ken about the oil analysis and ADC oil filter and that the owner expects this to be a simple overhaul.
Â
The next time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine would need to be aligned bored (the case had been chafing), the crank needed to be reground (it was out of tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and had chewed up the crank), it would need a new cam and lifters (this plane was flown over 300 hours a year), and it would need new cylinders (the cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.) "
Â
--------------
Bottom line. Â The oil analysis for the entire time he owned the plane did not tell him his engine was trashed. Â
Â
Oil analysis is a waste of time and money.
Â
As for fleet operators, they too could save a lot of money just by inspecting the oil filter.
Â
From: Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson(at)pobox.com> (douglas.dodson(at)pobox.com)
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:57:07 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Oil Filters
I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.
Â
Â
- Doug
Â
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From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Oil Filters
Â
I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway.
Â
Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis  should keep a chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing.
Â
Noel
Â
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
Â
AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
Â
OK, do I have your attention? Â
Â
Here is why...
Â
Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
Â
Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
BUT! Â If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Â Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter.
That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.
If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours.
But, we will work with 50 hours.
You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.
Â
OK, here we go....
50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes.
If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
50 / 8 = 6.26 QtsÂ
What does that mean?
Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ...
Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity.  That is 71.4% of the oil capacityÂin your engine.
Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity.  That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
Â
SOOoooo What are you really checking? Â Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount. Â
For me that is not good data.
Â
Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping.
Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. Â (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)
Â
NOW! ÂYou want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money?
Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.
What about the Oil Filter? Â Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.
For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ... Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
Â
One last point. Â After reading a few oil analysis reports. Â What one thing do they all have in common?
There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: Â More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
When it comes to this, I have stories for you! Â
Â
Bottom line:  Oil changed regularlyÂdoes more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
Â
Barry
Â
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On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Doug,
Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did.
I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs.
Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
Â
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In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
| Quote: |
That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug   target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution  |
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