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Gas spill from Bing carb
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jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:59 pm    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Hi All:
I stated my Jab 2200 today. I have not flown yet. It had the air filter disconnected. I observed that some gas spilled from the Bing carb. A friend of mine thinks that this is due to the floats level, that it needs to be adjusted to close earlier. Is it this correct? Anybody has a different recommendation.
Best Regards!
Jose Toro
Rans S6ES / Jab 2200 solid lifters (waiting for FAA inspection)



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elleryweld(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

You should have a airfilter on your Jabiru engine and a small tube coming from the port on the side of the carb into the breather box for it to work correctly if not you will think it is flooding out or it will show signs of fuel running out of your carb like you have explained dont adjust carb untill you have properly hooked this up and I think it will fix your problem

Ellery Batchelder Jr.



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:21 pm    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Ellery:
I use a K&N air filter connected to the carburetor instead of an air box. Carb ice should not be an issue here in the Caribbean. I connect the small line that you mentioned in a hole in the air filter. I will install the oil filter and follow your recommendation not to adjust the carb. Will keep you informed.
What you did with the fuel pump breather? I have not connected a line to it.
Thanks!
Jose

From: Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com>
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 9:50:37 PM
Subject: Re: Gas spill from Bing carb

You should have a air filter on your Jabiru engine and a small tube coming from the port on the side of the carb into the breather box for it to work correctly if not you will think it is flooding out or it will show signs of fuel running out of your carb like you have explained dont adjust carb until you have properly hooked this up and I think it will fix your problem

Ellery Batchelder Jr.



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elleryweld(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

I just vented it away from anything that Might get hot

Ellery Batchelder Jr.



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ces308



Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

I was/am having the same problem and was told to replace the float needle...I did...I have the same problem...before you change the float needle CHECK YOU FUEL PRESSURE !!! and save yourself some money...I'm guessing when you check it it's around 7 lbs.... should be 2 -3 lbs....do this first..

chris ambrose
M3X/jab a 2200
N327CS


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Chris:

If the fuel pressure is high - How do you/did you reduce it?
Barry

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 5:21 PM, ces308 <ces308(at)ldaco.com (ces308(at)ldaco.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "ces308" <ces308(at)ldaco.com (ces308(at)ldaco.com)>

I was/am having the same problem and was told to replace the float needle...I did...I have the same problem...before you change the float needle CHECK YOU FUEL PRESSURE !!! and save yourself some money...I'm guessing when you check it it's around 7 lbs....  should be 2 -3 lbs....do this first..

chris ambrose
M3X/jab a 2200
N327CS




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

High fuel pressure is a very rare problem but a carb float needle that will
not seal is much more common. Sometimes there is debris in the float needle
seat. Sometimes there is a groove worn into the float needle tip that
prevents sealing. Occasionally we've seen the brass seat itself have tool
chatter marks (ridges) in the sealing area that prevent a good seal. Once
in a while we hear of an older engine with the pink tipped float needle not
doing the job and in that case the stronger black tipped needle usually
solves the problem.

Pete Krotje
Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC
931-680-2800
www.usjabiru.com

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ces308



Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Pete is correct,but you are the 3rd one in the last 2 weeks that has had this problem and after changing the float needle in both Franks Jab and mine it ends up after checking the fuel pressure in mine and then his...they were both putting out 7 + lbs of pressure...I'm just saying I would check the pressure first and go from there...I did replace the float needle in my engine ,but I believe the spring in the fuel pump was the problem...I wish I would have checked that first....I will check it after I get the spring in and report...

And Pete..you should have taken the bet...lol....(glad you didn't ) there was a spring in there....my friend and I were not communicating well that day...we took 7/16 in off that spring to make it weaker and it did drop the pressure to 1.7 at idle and 3 wide open..Pete ,were you able to get the spring shipped that day? and thanks.

chris ambrose
M3X/Jabiru
N327CS


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:41 am    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Chris:

If the fuel pressure is high - How do you/did you reduce it?
Barry
[quote]
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ces308



Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Barry....

Well ..I guess the correct way is to change the return spring inside the fuel pump...it's about 1" in diameter and about an inch and a half long,with a new one....we took the old one and cut off about 7/16 of an inch...this made the spring shorter and weaker,and that dropped the pressure to 1.7 at idle and 3 at WOT....but my buddy made a luck guess on the cut, and also another spring will most likely have a different tension than mine ...and I'm guessing also when you cut it off,it's just a matter of time before it starts to stiffen up and increase the pressure too...I have no idea why the spring gets stiffer...we have so theories,but I m not sure anyone is buying it...lol

I believe I'm going to connect a fuel pressure sensor to my Grand Rapids Tech engine monitor and when I see the pressure going up past 4 I'll change the spring again...I think the pressure on mine has been going up for the last year until the float needle finally said,you know what? I'm not playing any more ! and started flooding out the carb.

There is a chance the floats could be bad...but my money is on the fuel pump....at least I would start there first...if thats ok ,then take the carb bowl off and check everything in there.

Good luck !

chris ambrose
M3X/Jabiru A-2200 170. hrs when this started
N327CS


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ces308



Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Hello all...

I think I need to update the problem I was having....
Everything I did kept coming up to the same problem....fuel pressure going from 3 psi to 7+ psi....we believe it was a blockage in the crankcase vent...pressure would start out at 1.5 - 3 lbs and after 6-10 minutes of running it would go to 7+ lbs and flood out the engine...I think it was what I had in my catch can was freezing to the top of my vent tube and blocking it off...when I went back and checked temps on the days I had trouble ,it was the days that the temps were below 20*...all the other days were over 32*...I changed my catch can and enlarged all the tubing to and from the can and believe that will take care of my problem..I should have it flying again next weekend and will write a report on how it went!

chris ambrose
M3X/Jabiru A-2200 174.4 hrs ser 1228
N327CS


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:56 am    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Chris-
Why did you have so much accumulation in the catch can that it would
get to the point of blocking off the inlet? It should be emptied at
each 25-30 hour oil change. I will typically get 4-8 ounces in my can
between oil changes.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1080+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)

On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:11 AM, ces308 wrote:

Quote:


Hello all...

I think I need to update the problem I was having....
Everything I did kept coming up to the same problem....fuel
pressure going from 3 psi to 7+ psi....we believe it was a blockage
in the crankcase vent...pressure would start out at 1.5 - 3 lbs and
after 6-10 minutes of running it would go to 7+ lbs and flood out
the engine...I think it was what I had in my catch can was freezing
to the top of my vent tube and blocking it off...when I went back
and checked temps on the days I had trouble ,it was the days that
the temps were below 20*...all the other days were over 32*...I
changed my catch can and enlarged all the tubing to and from the
can and believe that will take care of my problem..I should have it
flying again next weekend and will write a report on how it went!

chris ambrose
M3X/Jabiru A-2200 174.4 hrs ser 1228
N327CS


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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328885#328885




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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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ces308



Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Hi Lynn...

When I took the Brillo pad out last summer because it was getting rotten,I made a new cup and put wadded up paper toweling in it to soak up the moisture and it worked great in warm weather...the cup I used also sealed up much better than the old one,and I added a longer tube coming out of the bottom of the airplane,which I think was a factor too.You are right,there was never very much liquid in it,but I think somewhere in that system it was blocking the vent...we'll know for sure next week !

chris ambrose
M3X/Jabiru A-2200 174.4 hrs ser 1228
N327CS


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:39 pm    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Brillo pad? Cup? Sealed up? It sounds like a shallow device. Just for
reference, the one I got from Pete holds about 12-16 ounces, which
was great for the "early hours" on my engine, when it puked about an
ounce per hour into the collection container, like Jabiru says it
should. But recently, since I overhauled my engine and (apparently)
got it operating like an engine should, it only collects about 4-8
ounces in a 25-hour period....an oil change duration for me. Whether
this is due to my re-honing (and new rings) of the cylinder walls, or
the addition of a second crankcase vent (in place of the mechanical
fuel pump), I'm not really sure, but I'm no longer having to add oil
between oil changes, and I'm not collecting as much oil in the
collection bottle.

Getting back to the collection device....mine is made of fiberglass,
is about the size/shape of a 12-16 oz. beer can, and is vented on the
top. I took my "down tube" off since I no longer worry about my "cup
runneth over" ...please excuse the humor....: ) Maybe Jabiru
intended that down-tube to also help draw vapors or whatever out of
the crankcase, but my system works perfectly well without it.
Originally, I think the down-tube was meant to allow the collected
oil to vent overboard if it got too full, rather than overfill and
run down the firewall.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1080+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)


On Jan 29, 2011, at 5:04 PM, ces308 wrote:

Quote:


Hi Lynn...

When I took the Brillo pad out last summer because it was getting
rotten,I made a new cup and put wadded up paper toweling in it to
soak up the moisture and it worked great in warm weather...the cup
I used also sealed up much better than the old one,and I added a
longer tube coming out of the bottom of the airplane,which I think
was a factor too.You are right,there was never very much liquid in
it,but I think somewhere in that system it was blocking the
vent...we'll know for sure next week !

chris ambrose
M3X/Jabiru A-2200 174.4 hrs ser 1228
N327CS


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328938#328938




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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Hi Lynn,
Could you please ellaborate more on the secondary crankcase vent you installed in lieu of the mechanical pump?
Sounds interesting.
Thanks,
Naftali.
 
> From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
[quote] Subject: Re: Re: Gas spill from Bing carb
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 17:37:13 -0500
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Brillo pad? Cup? Sealed up? It sounds like a shallow device. Just for
reference, the one I got from Pete holds about 12-16 ounces, which
was great for the "early hours" on my engine, when it puked about an
ounce per hour into the collection container, like Jabiru says it
should. But recently, since I overhauled my engine and (apparently)
got it operating like an engine should, it only collects about 4-8
ounces in a 25-hour period....an oil change duration for me. Whether
this is due to my re-honing (and new rings) of the cylinder walls, or
the addition of a second crankcase vent (in place of the mechanical
fuel pump), I'm not really sure, but I'm no longer having to add oil
between oil changes, and I'm not collecting as much oil in the
collection bottle.

Getting back to the collection device....mine is made of fiberglass,
is about the size/shape of a 12-16 oz. beer can, and is vented on the
top. I took my "down tube" off since I no longer worry about my "cup
runneth over" ...please excuse the humor....: ) Maybe Jabiru
intended that down-tube to also help draw vapors or whatever out of
the crankcase, but my system works perfectly well without it.
Originally, I think the down-tube was meant to allow the collected
oil to vent overboard if it got too full, rather than overfill and
run down the firewall.


Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1080+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)




On Jan 29, 2011, at 5:04 PM, ces308 wrote:

> --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "ces308" <ces308(at)ldaco.com>
>
> Hi Lynn...
>
> When I took the Brillo pad out last summer because it was getting
> rotten,I made a new cup and put wadded up paper toweling in it to
> soak up the moisture and it worked great in warm weather...the cup
> I used also sealed up much better than the old one,and I added a
> longer tube coming out of the bottom of the airplane,which I think
> was a factor too.You are right,there was never very much liquid in
> it,but I think somewhere in that system it was blocking the
> vent...we'll know for sure next week !
>
> chris ambrose
> M3X/Jabiru A-2200 174.4 hrs ser 1228
> N327CS
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328938#328938
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
========================>


Quote:
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:02 am    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Hi Naftali-

When I decided to go with gravity fuel feed, I had removed the
mechanical fuel pump, and had made a 5/16" thick block-off plate to
cover the hole where the fuel pump had been. Then later on, I got to
thinking that maybe the crankcase needed to breathe a little easier.
My thinking was that if there were more than just the one breather
tube, maybe so much oil wouldn't be pumped out of the engine, so I
drilled a hole in the block-off plate and installed a fitting,
attached a hose to it, and ran the hose over to my catch
can....pretty simple, really. An added bonus is that when I put oil
in the engine, there is no more glup, glup, gurgle, as the oil is
slow to enter the engine because the escaping air is no longer having
to compete with the oil coming down the dipstick tube.

At the collection can/puke jar/whatever you want to call it, I just
added another inlet hole and a metal tube, and attached the new hose.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1080+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)

On Jan 30, 2011, at 1:47 AM, Naftali Horowitz wrote:

Quote:
Hi Lynn,
Could you please ellaborate more on the secondary crankcase vent
you installed in lieu of the mechanical pump?
Sounds interesting.
Thanks,
Naftali.


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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:52 am    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Thanks Lynn
 
> From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
[quote] Subject: Re: Re: Gas spill from Bing carb
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 06:59:23 -0500
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>


Hi Naftali-

When I decided to go with gravity fuel feed, I had removed the
mechanical fuel pump, and had made a 5/16" thick block-off plate to
cover the hole where the fuel pump had been. Then later on, I got to
thinking that maybe the crankcase needed to breathe a little easier.
My thinking was that if there were more than just the one breather
tube, maybe so much oil wouldn't be pumped out of the engine, so I
drilled a hole in the block-off plate and installed a fitting,
attached a hose to it, and ran the hose over to my catch
can....pretty simple, really. An added bonus is that when I put oil
in the engine, there is no more glup, glup, gurgle, as the oil is
slow to enter the engine because the escaping air is no longer having
to compete with the oil coming down the dipstick tube.

At the collection can/puke jar/whatever you want to call it, I just
added another inlet hole and a metal tube, and attached the new hose.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1080+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)



On Jan 30, 2011, at 1:47 AM, Naftali Horowitz wrote:

> Hi Lynn,
> Could you please ellaborate more on the secondary crankcase vent
> you installed in lieu of the mechanical pump?
> Sounds interesting.
> Thanks,
> Naftali.>


Quote:
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Charles R Gallagher



Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:27 am    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Good morning Lynn, has the electroair direct-fire ignition system and Rotec TBI-40 injection resulted in balanced temperatures and better fuel efficiency .Do you think it was money well spent. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Rgs.,CRG

--- On Sun, 1/30/11, Naftali Horowitz <naftalih(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote:

From: Naftali Horowitz <naftalih(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Gas spill from Bing carb
To: "jabiru list" <jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, January 30, 2011, 7:49 AM

Thanks Lynn

> From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
Quote:
Subject: Re: Re: Gas spill from Bing carb
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 06:59:23 -0500
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>


Hi Naftali-

When I decided to go with gravity fuel feed, I had removed the
mechanical fuel pump, and had made a 5/16" thick block-off plate to
cover the hole where the fuel pump had been. Then later on, I got to
thinking that maybe the crankcase needed to breathe a little easier.
My thinking was that if there were more than just the one breather
tube, maybe so much oil wouldn't be pumped out of the engine, so I
drilled a hole in the block-off plate and installed a fitting,
attached a hose to it, and ran the hose over to my catch
can....pretty simple, really. An added bonus is that when I put oil
in the engine, there is no more glup, glup, gurgle, as the oil is
slow to enter the engine because the escaping air is no longer having
to compete with the oil coming down the dipstick tube.

At the collection can/puke jar/whatever you want to call it, I just
added another inlet hole and a metal tube, and attached the new hose.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1080+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)



On Jan 30, 2011, at 1:47 AM, Naftali Horowitz wrote:

> Hi Lynn,
> Could you please ellaborate more on the secondary crankcase vent
> you installed in lieu of the mechanical pump?
> Sounds interesting.
> Thanks,
> Naftali.



Quote:
http://www.matr


[quote][b]


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:40 am    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

I did not seen any better fuel distribution since I went to the TBI,
based on EGT's...they still wander all over the place as far as
balanced goes. I'm convinced...and so is Jabiru apparently, or they
wouldn't be testing with one, or at least they bought one and ran
some tests...that the imbalance of EGT's is a manifold problem. I
built an updraft intake manifold and plenum to try to alleviate the
problem after first using the TBI on the stock Jabiru manifold, and
it didn't help much, if at all.
Fuel efficiency is better, I think, and I'm able to fly lean of peak
EGT, which results in better economy, but it'd take YEARS to recover
the money spent on it. Also, with any device such as this, you spend
a lot of time checking the gauges to see where the EGT has gone. This
has become less of a chore since I went ot a vernier mixture
control....no more creeping cable control. In hindsight, if you want
a carefree flight, get the Bing working *correctly*, and leave the
fussing behind. I bought the TBI for the ability to select the
mixture that I wanted in-flight, and that's what I got. I guess it
comes down to do you want to experiment, and keep your eye on the
gauges, or do you want to fly. If you're a tinkerer go for the TBI,
but if not stay with the Bing...if it works.

The Electroair has been great. No more rotor and cap hassles, and no
more leaky distributor shafts. Spark plug life is long, and gaps can
be increased which results in better burning of less-than-perfect air/
fuel ratios. It starts at a reduced timing advance which means the
battery can be getting weak and starts are still insured. There is
also the longer spark duration, which means a more complete fuel
burn, as I understand it.

I fly the plane during the Michigan winters, which means having to
start the engine at below-freezing temperatures, and although I pre-
heat the engine, it has never failed to start...today at 18 above
zero F., and as low as 6 above zero F.

As an aside, I just ordered some aluminum tubing that I'll use to try
another intake manifold configuration...this time I'll bell-mouth the
tubes inside the plenum. If this doesn't help, then I'll give it a
rest, and just fly the thing as is....until I get another notion. : )

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1081 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

On Jan 30, 2011, at 10:23 AM, Charles Gallagher wrote:

Quote:
Good morning Lynn, has the electroair direct-fire ignition system
and Rotec TBI-40 injection resulted in balanced temperatures and
better fuel efficiency .Do you think it was money well spent.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Rgs.,CRG



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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:56 am    Post subject: Gas spill from Bing carb Reply with quote

Freezing of the crankcase venting system has happened two times that I know
of. Each time resulted in pressure building up enough to blow out the rear
oil seal. Both times were in pusher applications where the engine was out
in the cold airstream and the collection bottle was very cold. Moisture
from the air vented out of the crankcase froze to the brass fitting at the
exit of those custom made oil recovery bottles and blocked the flow of air
out of the engine.

Pete Krotje
Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC
931-680-2800
www.usjabiru.com


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