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rmitch1(at)hughes.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

Here is a mind boggling idea, glass solar highways, with built in signage and no asphalt.  Should try this on airport runways first.

Bob Mitchell

L-320



[quote]        	  Quote: 	
		        

: Solar    Highways

      

 

            

Now    this is  really "out of the box thinking".; 



                                 

Talk  about    an interesting idea!  fascinating concept.          

    

http://www.wimp.com/solarhighways/





	




 

   



        

[b]

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

OUCH!  Mind boggling is right.   Think the roads get slick now when it rains?  A little oil from the cars, a little rain, and it would make ICE look like your friend.

  

 I think I will pass on this one, especially on airport runways.  Its those unintended consequences that will get you every time.



 

   From: Robert Mitchell <rmitch1(at)hughes.net>

To: "Aeroelectric-List(at)Matronics. Com" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 2:18:54 PM

Subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)



 Here is a mind boggling idea, glass solar highways, with built in signage and no asphalt.  Should try this on airport runways first.

 Bob Mitchell

 L-320



 [quote]            	  Quote: 	
		    

: Solar Highways

  

 

    

Now this is  really "out of the box thinking".; 



           

Talk  about an interesting idea!  fascinating concept.     

  

http://www.wimp.com/solarhighways/





	




 



<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Drel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List _D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D  [/b][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

At 03:45 PM 2/6/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  OUCH!  Mind boggling is right.   Think the roads get slick now when 

it rains?  A little oil from the cars, a little rain, and it would 

make ICE look like your friend.



I think I will pass on this one, especially on airport runways.  Its 

those unintended consequences that will get you every time.


	


   Clearly, there are many details begging for

   further attention. I was disappointed too that

   so much whoopie-do was given to signage, etched

   circuit boards, weight sensors, microprocessors

   and other gee-whizzies. They did acknowledge the

   demands placed on a roadway by 18-wheelers traveling

   at highway speeds.



   Yes, the planet is blessed with a lot of silicon

   dioxide but crafting it into a material with suitable

   resistance to damage due to flexure under loading,

   a road surface with coefficients of friction

   equal to or better than asphalt, and still remain

   friendly to the task of housing photo-cells is

   a daunting one.



   I am reminded of the main street of my little

   cow/wheat/oil-town. It's paved in bricks. Many pushing

   100 years old. The maintenance guys can pull them

   up, dig up and fix problematic pipes, and put them back down

   again. Would our roads and highways become paved

   with glass bricks that not only carry the weight

   of vehicles but generate electricity too? Golly, local

   roadway jurisdictions could sell advertising. Not

   only could a roadway light up to define its

   boundaries, it could pitch laundry soap

   and life insurance. It's a siren song looking for

   the support of some simple-ideas. Maybe you could

   buy cars with built in pop-up blockers. Still

   another source of revenue for somebody.



   I'll suggest there's a still greater challenge.

   Forget the photocells for the moment. Suppose you

   had an array of . . . AA alkaline cells on 3" centers

   22' wide and 5280 feet long . . . one mile of 'roadway'.



   That's about 1.8 million cells that produce 1.0 to 1.5 volts

   of EMF and current levels MUCH greater than a 9 square

   inch photo voltaic and about 3x the voltage to boot.

   Now, how to hook them up? Series-parallel to what

   voltage/current level?



   The simple-idea in power distribution that doomed

   T.A. Edison's wildest dreams was LINE LOSSES. DC

   has to be generated at the voltage it is sold at.



http://edison.rutgers.edu/power.htm



http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/index.php/Edison%27s_Electric_Light_and_Power_System



   I saw a map of Edison's power generating system for

   a neighborhood of N.Y.  He had to have generating

   facilities every few blocks. The second article

   speaks to a "Three wire distribution" system to

   save on copper (and thus minimize losses). This

   had to be a +120/0/-120 distribution where the ground

   leg current was ideally offset to zero by managing

   loads for equal current flow in the two "hot"

   legs. A forerunner of our modern 120/0/120 VAC

   system for large, single phase appliances.



   So back to our solar roads. At what point does

   it become most efficient to take all the DC coming

   off the road, run it through an inverter and boost

   to voltage levels conducive to efficient distribution?



   How may INVERTERS PER MILE are called for? How

   does one manage variable loads by the various

   customers . . .  one could funnel generated

   electricity to a single town by taxing all that

   was available from the nearest surrounding roads.

   But at night, or after a big snowfall, that goes

   to zero. Filling in the no-sun gaps would require

   just as large an over-head system as we have in

   place today. Since system reliability is inversely

   proportional to parts count, what kind of reliability

   numbers might we hope for with what might amount

   to a hundred million inverters and 200 trillion

   photocells being run over routinely by cars and

   dump trucks. Gee, those number roll right off the

   tongue really easy . . . I might be missing a

   good career in politics.



   The video might impress some politicians being

   petitioned for a dip into the taxpayer's pockets

   but it's not clear to me that this 'idea' has any

   more merit in the hard cold cruel realities that

   face any supplier of utilities be it electricity,

   natural gas, or water.



http://www.bwea.com/ukwed/index.asp



http://www.windturbinesyndrome.com/news/2010/denmark-turning-against-wind-turbines-uk/



   Then there's the matter of 'upkeep'. See:



http://webecoist.com/2009/05/04/10-abandoned-renewable-energy-plants/



   There's something rather profound about the

   probability of success for any new technology.

   If it's spins up with risk investor dollars,

   failure to produce a profit will effect a

   just and timely shutdown of the effort before

   $much$ is wasted. Losses are keep to a minimum.

   Further, the money wasted was provided by

   individuals who presumably knew that there was

   risk and were willing/able to assume it.



   When the technology is brought to the market

   on the back of taxpayer subsidy, then there

   are no clear and profound boundaries to define

   the point were a bad idea is euthanized. The

   source of funds is from individuals who have no

   knowledge of how their money is being spent

   and they have no choice as to whether to accept

   or reject the opportunity to accept the risk.

   Further, the losses can go on for a very long

   time with little or no public notice. At least

   in aviation, the bad ideas eventually catch up

   with all the pilots willing to fly them . . .

   the problem is self-correcting.



   Wonder if the EPA will be as demanding of wind-

   farmers as they are on coal-miners. Will the

   builders of abandoned or played out 'green' resources

   be returned to their natural, pristine states

   or will we need another super-fund to gather

   up all that junk and get the bases out of the

   ground? I wonder how deep those things go.



   Color me skeptical.



   Aviation has been blessed with a relatively

   benign 'touch' by regulators . . . although

   it is getting worse. The development side

   has remained free to exploit public will and

   imagination. This is something we can thank

   the Wright brothers for.



   We've enjoyed a huge benefit to the DIY aviation

   arts and sciences that did NOT originate as the

   work-product of a taxpayer funded/subsidized effort.



   This relatively 'open source' environment has

   built a rich history of recipes for failure

   to avoid and recipes for success to exploit.

   Our friends soldering arrays of photo-cells

   and LEDs together under sheets of glass would

   be well advised to dig through the archives

   on Westinghouse, Edison, Tesla, and countless

   others who would help them put their task into

   real world perspective. Some of the engineers

   on their team should be excited about the study

   of simple-ideas that govern power distribution

   and the economics of marketing that power.



   The fact that sand is so plentiful and cheap

   doesn't necessarily make it the ultimate solution

   for keeping our roads flat AND our microwaves

   turning out soggy pizza.

   Bob . . .

ainut(at)knology.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:25 pm Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

spoilsport.

Wonder if the road could keep itself clear of ice and snow over time.  

and so on.

David

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 At 03:45 PM 2/6/2011, you wrote:

> OUCH!  Mind boggling is right.   Think the roads get slick now when 

> it rains?  A little oil from the cars, a little rain, and it would 

> make ICE look like your friend.

>

> I think I will pass on this one, especially on airport runways.  Its 

> those unintended consequences that will get you every time.

   Clearly, there are many details begging for

   further attention. I was disappointed too that

   so much whoopie-do was given to signage, etched

   circuit boards, weight sensors, microprocessors

   and other gee-whizzies. They did acknowledge the

   demands placed on a roadway by 18-wheelers traveling

   at highway speeds.

   Yes, the planet is blessed with a lot of silicon

 <<<snip>>>

-- 

If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros.

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

Thanks Bob & the original poster for this interesting little diversion. Let

me add to it with this link:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/making-stuff-cleaner.html



It's to a PBS Nova program last week, part 3 of a 4 part series loosely

classified as materials science. This particular issue includes an

interesting segment with our own Bill Dube and his Killocycle zero to sixty

in 1 second electric motorcycle, plus other interesting speculation about

new energy technologies.



I also appreciate Bob's comments about the economics of innovative ideas. It

often strikes me that the biggest stumbling block to getting new ideas to

market is the government. If they aren't pushing ethanol or wind power

fiascos, they are regulating other ideas into oblivion. 



Terry

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

 	  Quote: 	
		  I also appreciate Bob's comments about the economics of innovative ideas. It

often strikes me that the biggest stumbling block to getting new ideas to

market is the government. If they aren't pushing ethanol or wind power

fiascos, they are regulating other ideas into oblivion.


	


   It's easy to find fault with government. They are

   after all the most visible practitioners of the

   the art of wishing, writing it down, making it

   law and decreeing that. "yeah verily, it shall be so."

   We bemoan the drag on truly innovative and useful

   efforts . . . but they have the same effects on the

   not-so-useful endeavors too.



   The true test of an idea is conducted in the free-

   market exchange of value where both individuals of

   every exchange walks away thinking that THEY got

   the better part of the deal. BOTH exchange something

   they valued less for something they valued more.



   The experiment to be repeated is with dozens, hundreds or

   millions of such exchanges. This demonstrates the economics

   of that exchange. LOTS of folks choosing to make the trade

   can at least put down a milestone for a fad (hula hoops

   and pet rocks). Carry it out for years, decades or centuries

   (hard drives and 16-penny nails) and we can say with

   confidence that the producers are adding good value to

   the lives of their fellow citizens.



   The vast majority of all new businesses fail in the

   first five years . . . and they were doing that before

   the regulators decided to offer so much 'help'. This is

   the result of the market place making a value decision

   on whether or not to spend its money on a particular

   product.



   How many kit or plans-built airplanes have gone TU or

   never got into production? What made and RV stand out

   over say a Thorp? Both are great performing, all metal

   airplanes. But they're certainly marketed differently.

   Take a look at the list of experimental airplanes here:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_experimental_aircraft



   Many of those made it to production but not based on

   the personal desires and expendable resources of the

   end user. Governments can spend what ever they want to

   get certain performance goals. This is not free-market

   exchange. I looked for a listing of amateur-built designs

   but couldn't find one . . . but my recollection is that

   there are certainly hundreds of designs or proposed

   designs that never flew, only a handful were built, etc.



   Why? Because the free-market customer (you guys) were

   looking for a good performing alternative to what a

   C-172 could do for you. Hopefully at a fraction of the

   cost and minimum of regulatory busy-work that only

   serves to drive up cost of ownership. Further, it was

   a POWERFUL incentive to buy if that experiment had been

   successfully repeated for years and hundreds of experiences.



   It takes more than a "better mousetrap" to bring people

   to your door. It takes an end-to-end understanding and

   skill for what's necessary to conceive, develop, produce,

   market and support any successful product. If John Thorp

   had both the vision and drive possessed by Richard

   VanGrunsven, then perhaps many of you would be working

   on T-22s and 24s instead of RV8s and 10s.



   The fact that any regulatory agency chooses to inject

   itself between suppliers and consumers only serves to

   drive up costs of acquisition/ownership for any particular

   commodity. When those costs take the glow off of a

   desire for ownership, the future for that commodity is

   damaged. Intervention in the free market can sour the

   economics of a good idea and artificially bolster

   the status of mediocre or even bad product. There

   MAY come a day when the cost of electricity from legacy

   energy sources will be so high that wind-power begins

   to make sense . . . else the lights go out. But right

   now, trying to push wind-power into what used to be

   a really reliable, low-cost commodity market has done

   nothing but drive up the costs of that commodity while

   wasting $billions$ in funds that could be better spent

   elsewhere.



   Present trends plotted into the future say that our

   own bastion of technological and philosophical

   freedom will come under increasing attack. I really

   think the only reason it has taken so long is because

   we (the OBAM aviation community) is so tiny a proportion

   of the population. But without a change in course,

   our time is coming.



   The EPA could decree tomorrow that non-commercial

   flight after a certain date be done with electric

   propulsion. And what's to stop them? How many of

   our fellow citizens would feel compelled to rise in

   protest of our plight?  Maybe we could get Congress

   to accept a bargain: "Hey guys, we'll go to all

   electric airplanes as soon as the first 100 miles

   of photo-voltaic, glass highway goes into service.

   Oh yeah, we'll need photo-voltaic landing strips

   every 100 miles or so to stop and recharge the

   batteries."

   Bob . . .

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

I am going to collect a book about guys who are obsessed with a whacky idea. There's no shortage. Look at Paul Mollier. 



If you want to see another seductive but whacky idea check:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGGabrorRS8



or Google "Japanese machine turns plastic to fuel youtube"



Your job is to figure out why it is a terrible idea. (And it is!)

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

ainut(at)knology.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:18 am Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

What amazes me about Moller is his ability to con, er, convince others 

to invest *millions* in his (so far unsuccessful) ideas.



david



Eric M. Jones wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am going to collect a book about guys who are obsessed with a whacky idea. There's no shortage. Look at Paul Mollier.



 If you want to see another seductive but whacky idea check:



 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGGabrorRS8



 or Google "Japanese machine turns plastic to fuel youtube"



 Your job is to figure out why it is a terrible idea. (And it is!)



 --------

 Eric M. Jones

 www.PerihelionDesign.com

 113 Brentwood Drive

 Southbridge, MA 01550

 (508) 764-2072

 emjones(at)charter.net





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329944#329944



    


	


-- 

If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros.

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:45 am Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

 	  Quote: 	
		  If you want to see another seductive but whacky idea check:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGGabrorRS8



or Google "Japanese machine turns plastic to fuel youtube"



Your job is to figure out why it is a terrible idea. (And it is!)


	


    The first question that comes to mind is how many

    Joules of energy are required to convert say 1 kg

    of plastic into any useable liquid and how much

    energy is available for re-use from the utilization

    of that liquid in other applications? I think Ethanol

    has a similar conversion efficiency problem. It takes

    more energy to produce a volume of ethanol than one gets

    back out of it when it's burned in an engine. So while

    the byproduct (ethanol) might be a desirable fuel

    from the emissions perspective, emissions from production

    of the fuel more than offset the gains. It's that old

    entropy thingy . . . along with our willingness or

    inability to consider the end-to-end economics.

    Then there's the unintended consequences. I understand

    that about 1/3 of our corn crops in the US are scheduled

    to be turned into fuel . . . when the price of food is

    going up faster than inflation. Gee, do you suppose there's

    some linkage here?



    I'm curious too about what's left in the distillation

    system for the plastic-to-oil conversion at the end of

    a batch. What are the residues and what disposal

    problems do they present? And what's the energy budet

    for further processing to turn the "oil" into a motor

    fuel that modern engines require or will tolerate?



    That's not to suggest that the plastic-to-oil conversion

    might not make sense in some situations. But it takes

    and end-to-end study of the big-picture economics.

    Suppose you could gather all the plastic trash for a

    nation in a few locations. What are the logistics and

    energy expenditures for such an effort? The table

    top demonstrator might be just fine for the energy

    savy home-owner to convert HIS trash into a more useful

    and less unsightly commodity . . . but in the final

    analysis I think it will prove to be a more expensive

    and more energy intensive way to dispose of one's

    trash.

   Bob . . .

ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:05 am Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

Hmm. I wonder if MidWestern pro-capitalist free-enterprise supporters 

are behind the enormous corn subsidies. At least they let Microsoft 

invent the Internet though...



RF

On 2/6/2011 3:28 PM, Terry Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     If they aren't pushing ethanol or wind power

 fiascos, they are regulating other ideas into oblivion.



 Terry

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

 	  Quote: 	
		  What amazes me about Moller is his ability to con, er, convince others 

to invest *millions* in his (so far unsuccessful) ideas. david 	




The SEC smacked him down hard a couple years ago. Now he can't ask anybody for funds. http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr17987.htm



Bob, All good points. 



As nice as the idea seems, a review of what has to be done to relatively- healthy cooking oil to make it work well in an engine merely hints at what has to be done to plastic fuel. Plastic contains vicious stuff...poisons, acids, corrosives. Your engine or your lungs...I wonder which fails first? Just because it burns, doesn't mean you should burn it. You haven't seen smog until you use plastic for fuel.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

earl_schroeder(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:41 am Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

Ralph and Terry,

Speaking as a retired Midwestern 'farmer', I do not know who is 'behind' the 'enormous corn subsidies' but most of us who farm family type farms did NOT start the subsidies nor do we want them.  However, you are forced to accept them to be competitive and stay in the business because the cost of equipment, fertilizer, seed, fuel, insurance etc all raise in unison with the 'subsidies'.  (just an excuse to raise we think)  The problem is those costs increase MORE than the 'payments' and never seem to go down.  I could send you the facts and figures but this is not the proper venue...   The RFD channel's program "This week in Agribusiness"  is the only source in the media that gets the facts close to real life.  (ch 231 on Dish Network and airs on the weekends)  Earl



Do Not Archive.

--------

N20DG

Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 61
Location: lancaster, texas

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:23 am Post subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)

In a message dated 2/7/2011 10:42:29 A.M. Central Standard Time,  earl_schroeder(at)juno.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		       The RFD channel's program "This week in Agribusiness"  is the only source    in the media that gets the facts close to real life.  (ch 231 on Dish    Network and airs on the weekends)  	
 Try 345 on directv

 [quote][b]

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