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Battery disconnect switch

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jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:55 am Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

Please have a look at:

http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodimages/pdf/130-C.pdf



Latching switch.

Takes no continuous current.

Takes 50ms pulse of 2.5A instead.

Carries 190A. max. 1800A.

Switches 100A.

Weighs a little over half a S701-1.

Costs a little over double a S701-1.



Apart from the trouble of having to make a nice reliable pulse -

is this an attractive option?



Jan de Jong

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:23 am Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

At 05:50 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Please have a look at:

http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodimages/pdf/130-C.pdf


	


   Interesting find!  This is but one example

   of many that we can expect to come over

   the horizon. This one is interesting in that

   it's not a solid-state switch. Doing a tear-down

   to see how it's assembled would be a great

   education.



   Lamar has had a solid-state contactor out for

   some time. I've heard nothing about it's

   utility or performance from users in the field.

   An engineer at Lamar was going to send me a

   sample but I think it slipped his mind. I

   think I'll hit him up again. I thought I might

   add a battery master switch to my pickup truck

   and use the feature to put some real-time service

   on products like these.



   Jan, have you attempted to locate a stocking

   distributor for this device? Any notion on

   what it costs?

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:55 am Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

 	  Quote: 	
		     Jan, have you attempted to locate a stocking

   distributor for this device? Any notion on

   what it costs?


	


    Here it is . . .



http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=8860610



    If I didn't already have a couple dozen

    things on the to-do list, I'd run right out

    an buy one. That will have to wait.



    Given that it's a Tyco product and designed

    for integration into automotive (worse than

    airplanes) service, this looks like a really

    interesting, low-risk product.



    CAUTION:  This is a set-reset, two-coil

    latched device. Unlike legacy contactors,

    it takes POWER to turn it on. It also takes

    POWER to turn it off.



    This is not necessarily a show-stopper but

    you need to figure out how it changes your

    master switch wiring/switch selection -and-

    how it might affect some abnormal operating

    situation.



    This is NOT a drop-in, plug-n-play substitution

    for the legacy contactor. The price is right

    but do the substitution with some thought as

    to the effects of new features added to your bag

    of tricks.

   Bob . . .

JLuckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

.. a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version

is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one?



1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes

2. looks cool 

3. Price is not bad



It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php.



Mounting will be different.  



If we use the latching capability, does is make circuitry simpler, more

reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it help prevent icing? - sorry,

couldn't resist 



I'm w/ Bob, definitely needs more noodling..

-Jeff

--

jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

In Europe RS sells the switch for £38.27 and €46,29 -, a lot more than 

Allied. And VAT of 20% or so not yet included either!

The plug needed is Tyco 184046-1 with A key (there are A .. D keys) and 

is hard to find.

I found only one retail source:

http://www.newunitedracetech.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_15_24&products_id=6114

They charge $2.70.



To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an 

adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the required 

4-pin Tyco plug as the output.

Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, switch 

to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, switch to 

open (from ground or power) would not do anything.

If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - 

introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think.



Jan de Jong

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

At 11:46 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>



 



 .. a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version

 is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one?



 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes

 2. looks cool 

 3. Price is not bad 	


 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20110211130251.01da57c0(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



   This is a direct descendant of the RPM/Stancor/White-Rogers

   series of legacy contactors.  The 70-111226 is a 3-wire

   12v contactor with one coil internally attached to the

   'BAT' terminal. It's the same class of contactor we've

   been using in small airplanes for many, many moons.



 

   Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:20 am Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

 	  Quote: 	
		  To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an 

adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the 

required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output.

Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, 

switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, 

switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything.

If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - 

introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think.


	


   Another thought. The coil resistance is stated as 4.7 ohms.

   This translates to a coil draw on the order of 2.5 amps

   while energized. The specs also state 100 mS max for transfer

   pulse. This means that you probably have to device control

   circuitry that LIMITS control inputs to input pulses having

   a fixed and limited duration.

   Bob . . .

klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:45 am Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

4. no continuous coil current for small electric systems

5. wider temperature limits

6. higher current silver contacts

7. they seem to be implying 42 volt disconnect capability which might 

make it better for OVP

8. might be acceptable to run electric dependent engine supply through 

it whereas I will not do that with the "standard" can-shaped contactor.

9. not subject to damage if the connector bolts turn during installation.



Cons

1.  more difficult connections involving extra bolts and a specific 

connector that will need to be sourced.

2. more difficult to mount and insulate connections from a metal airframe.

3. ??



On 2/11/2011 11:46 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote:

[quote] 



 ... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version

 is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one?



 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes

 2. looks cool 

 3. Price is not bad



 It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids

 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php.



 Mounting will be different.



 If we use the latching capability, does is make circuitry simpler, more

 reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it help prevent icing? - sorry,

 couldn't resist 



 I'm w/ Bob, definitely needs more noodling..

 -Jeff

 --

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

Bob do you normally run your starter through this contactor?

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III

Sent: February 11, 2011 2:42 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Battery disconnect switch

 

At 11:46 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote:

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>



... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version

is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one?



1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes

2. looks cool 

3. Price is not bad



[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CBCA12.21D88090[/img]



  This is a direct descendant of the RPM/Stancor/White-Rogers

  series of legacy contactors.  The 70-111226 is a 3-wire

  12v contactor with one coil internally attached to the

  'BAT' terminal. It's the same class of contactor we've

  been using in small airplanes for many, many moons.



  Bob . . .

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Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:25 pm Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

At 04:05 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob do you normally run your starter through this contactor?


	


   Sure. It's been done in a couple hundred thousand

   airplanes for 70 years.



   This contactor doesn't have to SWITCH starter current,

   only CARRY it. Not a big deal

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

 	  Quote: 	
		  

8. might be acceptable to run electric dependent engine supply 

through it whereas I will not do that with the "standard" can-shaped contactor.


	


    I might repeat a past recommendation that stuff needed

    to keep an engine lit should probably run directly from

    a battery bus.



   Bob . . .

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:27 am Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

On 2/11/2011 3:18 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>



 At 04:05 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote:

> Bob do you normally run your starter through this contactor?



   Sure. It's been done in a couple hundred thousand

   airplanes for 70 years.



   This contactor doesn't have to SWITCH starter current,

   only CARRY it. Not a big deal

   Bob . . .

I know that's conventional wisdom. But isn't it also conventional wisdom 
	


that one reason starter current is routed through the main contactor is 

so that in the event of a stuck starter contactor, the starter can be 

disabled using the main contactor? Is the logic that the main contactor 

only has to do it *once*?



Charlie

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:34 am Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

 	  Quote: 	
		  >   This contactor doesn't have to SWITCH starter current,

>   only CARRY it. Not a big deal


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  I know that's conventional wisdom. But isn't it also conventional 

wisdom that one reason starter current is routed through the main 

contactor is so that in the event of a stuck starter contactor, the 

starter can be disabled using the main contactor?


	


     Yes . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		  Is the logic that the main contactor only has to do it *once*?


	


     . . . or never. I've never experienced a

     stuck starter contactor. I've only been aware of

     a few incidents where B&C customers suffered

     the event without benefit of back up for killing

     power to the starter. Neither even destroyed the

     starter but one really melted the battery box

     case.



     Remember that contactor service life predictions

     are based upon switching certain kinds of loads

     usually in a laboratory environment. Hence the

     wide variation in 'ratings' for a switch or contactor

     that control incandescent lamps, DC motors, windshield

     de-ice heaters, etc. But in no case do we see switches

     or contactors offered with less than THOUSANDS of

     cycles at their various 'rated' loads.



     So the notion that a 70A rated contactor (70

     series RPM/Stancor/White-Rogers) is in mortal

     danger for having interrupted a 200A stuck

     starter once, twice or even a few dozen times

     is not supported by experience or physics.



     Having said that, there IS a situation where

     an el-cheepo contactor is at much greater risk

     for opening a out-of-ratings load. Figure Z-24

     proposes controlling the b-lead of a runaway

     alternator. If the voltage rises fast enough

     during contact spreading, there is a risk

     of sustained arcing between the fully spread

     contacts. This is one case where the contactor

     might experience a one-time event that leads

     to it's destruction. But better it's a $25 contactor

     than more valuable/useful system components.

   Bob . . .

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

The device is very noisy (86db) so you'd probably want to mount it  somewhere where the noise is not bothersome.

 Stan Sutterfield

  

 In a message dated 2/12/2011 3:09:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  ... a    quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version

is    also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one?



1. includes coil    spike-suppression diodes

2. looks cool 

3. Price is not    bad



It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped    solenoids

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php.



Mounting    will be different.  



If we use the latching capability, does is    make circuitry simpler, more

reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it    help prevent icing? - sorry,

couldn't resist 



I'm w/ Bob,    definitely needs more  noodling..

-Jeff



	


 

  

  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:54 pm Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

Always mount disconnect switches as close to the battery as possible.  Cessna actually mounts theirs on the battery box (C-180)  They also mount the relay for ground power on the box.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com

Sent: February 12, 2011 9:34 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch 

 

The device is very noisy (86db) so you'd probably want to mount it somewhere where the noise is not bothersome.



Stan Sutterfield



 



In a message dated 2/12/2011 3:09:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

.. a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version

is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one?



1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes

2. looks cool 

3. Price is not bad



It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php.



Mounting will be different.  



If we use the latching capability, does is make circuitry simpler, more

reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it help prevent icing? - sorry,

couldn't resist 



I'm w/ Bob, definitely needs more noodling..

-Jeff 	




 

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_________________
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Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

JLuckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:08 pm Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

Stan,  

   

Not sure what you mean by noisy.  Can you be more specific?  

     Is the      noise continuous?  
Is      this device any noisier than the traditional solenoid?  
Have      you done some kind of testing or do you have you worked w/ this device?   

   

TIA,  

   

-Jeff        

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 17:04

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch   

  

       

The device is very noisy (86db) so you'd probably want to mount it somewhere where the noise is not bothersome.  

    

Stan Sutterfield  

    

   

    

In a message dated 2/12/2011 3:09:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version

 is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one?

 

 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes

 2. looks cool 

 3. Price is not bad

 

 It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids

 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php.

 

 Mounting will be different.  

 

 If we use the latching capability, does is make circuitry simpler, more

 reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it help prevent icing? - sorry,

 couldn't resist 

 

 I'm w/ Bob, definitely needs more noodling..

 

 

 -Jeff  	
  

    

   

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Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:36 pm Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

Jeff,

 What I mean by noisy is 86 dB.  That is the noise generated by the  device as listed on the Tyco web site.

 86 dB, while not immediately damaging to hearing, is very loud and  can damage hearing if experienced over time.

 I wasn't referring to "noise" that would interfere with radio  transmissions.

 1. I don't know if the noise is continuous.  Check with Tyco.

 2. My experience with contactors normally used in aircraft is that the only  significant noise generated is when the contactor is initially excited and the  noise is the mechanical movement rather than an electrical  noise.  Thus, if the Tyco web site information is correct and if the noise  is continuous, then my estimate is that the Tyco device is noisier than  traditional solenoids.

 3. No.

 Stan Sutterfield

  

 In a message dated 2/13/2011 3:01:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Not sure    what you mean by noisy.  Can you be more specific?

1.  Is    the noise continuous?

2.  Is this device any noisier than the    traditional solenoid?

3.  Have you done some kind of testing or do you    have you worked w/ this

device?

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

JLuckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:26 pm Post subject: Battery disconnect switch

Stan,  

   

I thought you were referring to electrical noise and thus was a little confused.  I’m certain that it is not a continuous noise – just a single “thunk” or loud click when switching. The mechanical noise it makes when switching has never been a design criteria for me. (we aren’t talking about nuclear submarines here;).  

   

Thanks for the clarification.  

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com

 Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 19:29

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch   

  

       

Jeff,  

    

What I mean by noisy is 86 dB.  That is the noise generated by the device as listed on the Tyco web site.  

    

86 dB, while not immediately damaging to hearing, is very loud and can damage hearing if experienced over time.  

    

I wasn't referring to "noise" that would interfere with radio transmissions.  

    

1. I don't know if the noise is continuous.  Check with Tyco.  

    

2. My experience with contactors normally used in aircraft is that the only significant noise generated is when the contactor is initially excited and the noise is the mechanical movement rather than an electrical noise.  Thus, if the Tyco web site information is correct and if the noise is continuous, then my estimate is that the Tyco device is noisier than traditional solenoids.  

    

3. No.  

    

Stan Sutterfield  

    

   

    

In a message dated 2/13/2011 3:01:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

Not sure what you mean by noisy.  Can you be more specific?

 

 

 1.  Is the noise continuous?

 2.  Is this device any noisier than the traditional solenoid?

 3.  Have you done some kind of testing or do you have you worked w/ this

 device?  	
  

    

   

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royalina

Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 8

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch

Remember that contactor service life predictions

are based upon switching certain kinds of loads

usually in a laboratory environment.

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