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April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:54 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

 A good video (a little long - 7 minutes with sound) of a pilot having to make a forced landing in England in a Yak aircraft. He recorded it from his helmet camera. 

 



http://nycaviation.com/2011/02/video-british-pilot-lands-plane-in-field-after-engine-failure/ 

-- 

... Blitz

Byron M. Fox

80 Milland Drive

Mill Valley, CA 94941

415-307-2405



  [quote][b]

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:24 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

We bought the 50 after the forced landing,and by virtue of it landing gear up there was a fair amount of cosmetic damage but having magnetically and X-Ray tested the whole aircraft,no more damage!!

 

Richard Goode

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

 

Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Byron Fox

Sent: 01 March 2011 20:52

To: Yak LIst

Subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK



 

 A good video (a little long - 7 minutes with sound) of a pilot having to make a forced landing in England in a Yak aircraft. He recorded it from his helmet camera. 

http://nycaviation.com/2011/02/video-british-pilot-lands-plane-in-field-after-engine-failure/

-- 

... Blitz



 



Byron M. Fox



80 Milland Drive



Mill Valley, CA 94941



415-307-2405



 



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  [quote][b]

Stu

Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: Re: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

A credit to the pilot for bringing his aircraft to the ground safely and walking away from it.  However, reflecting on this experience (and one of my own), the pilot's decision to force land vs. bale out troubles me.  



Traditionally (at least in the U.S.) we get a lot more training on how to force land an aircraft than how to bale out of it.  Whereas, in the USSR,  DOSAAF students were required to practice and demonstrate proficiency in Yak bale out procedures.  Yet the DOSAAF records have many accounts of injury and fatality attributable to pilots' decisions to stay with their aircraft when there was no apparent need to.   



I suppose that pondering the decision for a split second too long could cost a pilot his life.  It seems to me that in most imaginable circumstances the decision can be made beforehand...so as to avoid hesitation in the cockpit.   For my part, considering the relatively low value of a Yak or CJ (compared to life), if it is clear that the engine will not restart and with enough altitude and minimal threat to those on the ground,  the policy is bale out now and pick up the insurance check later.



Stu Nicholson

_________________
Stewart Nicholson
Yak 52 N122GC

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:37 am Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Yes,he was over the lake district in the north of England which is pretty

rough terrain.Initially,the engine continued to run [without any oil] so he

thought he could get to Carlisle airfield,but it then seized solid!!



Richard Goode

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW



Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com



--

rick(at)rvairshows.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:47 am Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

What do you think the fatality rate is for bail outs? 

Rick VOLKER

---

plus2s

Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 65
Location: NEW ZEALAND

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:44 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

We don't have parachutes down under so the fatality rate from bale outs would be pretty high - I would stick with the plane

  

 Regards

 Keith



--- On Thu, 3/3/11, rick(at)rvairshows.com <rick(at)rvairshows.com> wrote:



 [quote]

From: rick(at)rvairshows.com <rick(at)rvairshows.com>

Subject: Re: Re: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

Date: Thursday, 3, March, 2011, 8:44 AM



 --> Yak-List message posted by: rick(at)rvairshows.com (rick(at)rvairshows.com)



What do you think the fatality rate is for bail outs? 

Rick VOLKER

---

Stu

Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Good question.  Rich Stowell wrote an article published on Sport Aerobatics in 2001, that points to an answer.  To net it out, there were 79 accidents in which the occupant(s) were wearing chutes, they broke down as follows:



Bailout not attempted or incomplete (did not exit a/c):  2 non-fatal, 25 fatal

Bailout completed:  41 non-fatal, 9 fatal 



Of the 9 completed bailouts that were fatal, 4 were attempted at too low an altitude, 1 person had a blood alcohol level of 0.10 and exited at 400 ft agl, 1 deployed the chute before exiting the a/c, 1 was not securely fastened into the chute harness and 1 chute failed apparently due to deployment at too high a speed.  



So by these numbers, if you're wearing a chute in a disabled aircraft and you do not attempt to bailout, your odds of survival are 2 non fatal /  27 total = 7%



If you're in the same situation and attempt to bailout of the aircraft, the odds of survival are 41 non fatal / 50 total = 82%.  But if you're sober, properly buckled into the chute and pull the D-ring after exiting at a safe altitude your odds improve to 49/50 = 98%.

_________________
Stewart Nicholson
Yak 52 N122GC

markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Keith, it was the same with the U.S. Navy's A-3  Skywarriors.  Most Whale drivers agree that if they'd had ejection seats  they wouldn't have remained in service near as many years as they did because  they would have all been at the bottom of the ocean minus the  seats!

  

 Mark Davis

 N44YK

  

 [quote]   ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Stu,

I share you feelings on that. The decision to bail out is made before you ever step to the jet. That is how we were trained in the AF and I suppose the Navy too. Obviously, the hardware is moving faster and is a little harder to land safely off field. It has been done though. Still it recommended that you give the aircraft back to the taxpayers vs. try to save an unsavable situation. That does not mean that we have not saved jets by not using the ejection system, we have. Have personal experience to prove it but it was a determination that was made with a the luxury of altitude and at the time with a motor that was still running although barely but enough to make thrusties. Put in a different situation I would exit in a heartbeat unless out of the safe ejection envelope. Does everybody know what that safe envelope is for the YAK as well as their parachutes?

Doc 



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:53 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Ah, that explains why you blokes have so many grease spots when your demo teams jump at air shows. No chutes will do that! It's not the first step that gets you but that last is a bitch!

Doc



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Good feed back

Doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:16 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Question:  When it seized, did it do any damage to the engine mounts?  



Mark Bitterlich

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:41 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Without a doubt a very interesting discussion and one where valuable

information can be circulated in order for everyone to make their own

personal decision based on accurate information. 



But even in the military it remains just that -- a personal decision --

and it remains one with these aircraft as well.  Certainly when the

"WING OFF" light comes on, the decision is a no-brainer.  However there

are a lot of other factors that have to be considered as well.  Jumping

out of your airplane when it is over a highly residential area might be

the best thing to do in order to save your own life, but what of others?

Is taking the time to consider that factor less than smart?  Possibly.

However I doubt anyone would condemn a pilot for at least considering

that aspect of the decision.  In fact, MANY pilots who decided to stay

with their aircraft are now referred to as "Hero's", as well they should

be.  



So I have to respectfully disagree.  I think you can prepare "canned

situations" where you can make the decision beforehand, but just like

going into battle.... a lot of decisions have to be made right on the

spot and sometimes there are factors that require you to think a little

bit before you just turn upside down and release your seatbelt.  



Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK  



--

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Also, we're so conditioned to land the airplane and it's just counter-intuitive to jump. On fire, uncontrollable or over impossible terrain seem like no-brainers. Other situations... tougher. 

On Mar 3, 2011, at 3:24 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Without a doubt a very interesting discussion and one where valuable

 information can be circulated in order for everyone to make their own

 personal decision based on accurate information. 

 

 But even in the military it remains just that -- a personal decision --

 and it remains one with these aircraft as well.  Certainly when the

 "WING OFF" light comes on, the decision is a no-brainer.  However there

 are a lot of other factors that have to be considered as well.  Jumping

 out of your airplane when it is over a highly residential area might be

 the best thing to do in order to save your own life, but what of others?

 Is taking the time to consider that factor less than smart?  Possibly.

 However I doubt anyone would condemn a pilot for at least considering

 that aspect of the decision.  In fact, MANY pilots who decided to stay

 with their aircraft are now referred to as "Hero's", as well they should

 be.  

 

 So I have to respectfully disagree.  I think you can prepare "canned

 situations" where you can make the decision beforehand, but just like

 going into battle.... a lot of decisions have to be made right on the

 spot and sometimes there are factors that require you to think a little

 bit before you just turn upside down and release your seatbelt.  

 

 Mark Bitterlich 

 N50YK  

 

 --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:27 pm Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Test will the IPAD response fly or not? This is a test no reply need. But it's still a "no brainer" in most circumstances unless you don't wear a chute.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Mar 3, 2011, at 2:24 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Without a doubt a very interesting discussion and one where valuable

 information can be circulated in order for everyone to make their own

 personal decision based on accurate information. 

 

 But even in the military it remains just that -- a personal decision --

 and it remains one with these aircraft as well.  Certainly when the

 "WING OFF" light comes on, the decision is a no-brainer.  However there

 are a lot of other factors that have to be considered as well.  Jumping

 out of your airplane when it is over a highly residential area might be

 the best thing to do in order to save your own life, but what of others?

 Is taking the time to consider that factor less than smart?  Possibly.

 However I doubt anyone would condemn a pilot for at least considering

 that aspect of the decision.  In fact, MANY pilots who decided to stay

 with their aircraft are now referred to as "Hero's", as well they should

 be.  

 

 So I have to respectfully disagree.  I think you can prepare "canned

 situations" where you can make the decision beforehand, but just like

 going into battle.... a lot of decisions have to be made right on the

 spot and sometimes there are factors that require you to think a little

 bit before you just turn upside down and release your seatbelt.  

 

 Mark Bitterlich 

 N50YK  

 

 --

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:26 am Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

No,we X-Rayed or magnetically tested every part of the airframe and no

damage at all.

But the force was considerable in that,when the engine seized,the prop was

still turning and the gearbox broke,allowing the prop to continue to turn!

Five of the pistons were literally welded to their cylinders!!



Richard Goode

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW



Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:55 am Post subject: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Understood.  Good info though.  There has been some conjecture on what

happens with a sudden engine seizure where some folks feel the engine

will rip itself right off the mounts.  It appears that possibly that is

not the case. 



Mark Bitterlich

--

GreasySideUp

Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Catastrophic failure of the engine and greater than 1k of altitude I am out of the Yak unless I am over the field and can make a landing.  Greater than 2k I will try a restart until 2k.  If there is a catastrophic failure of the motor above 2k I will get out as high as I can, with the caveat  of making a few radio calls on guard with my position and to launch the coast guard and still being out by 2k.  500'to 1k upright in control over trees - I am out of the plane.  Less than 500' unless I have the airspeed to zoom I am staying with the plane.  I know it takes me about 3-5 seconds to get out of the plane.  Over populated area - try to steer away and still bail.  I don't have stats but there are lots of airplanes that have crashed into houses where the only fatalities were the pilots.  I recall 0 instances where a pilot has walked away from putting a parachute equipped plane successfully on the road in a residential area.  I'm sure there are some, but there are quite a few parachute equipped pilots who have died in residential areas.  If it is between the trees and a park full of nuns, aim for the trees and bail out above 500'.



Training in Cessnas teaches to land off field because there is no other choice.  In chute equipped aircraft I have found the decision usually depends on the first instructors attitude and little else.  Very few people have an absolute decision matrix of when they will get out nor anything to base it on.  If you wear a chute, I think you need a plan on when you are going to use it.



If you are currently wearing a parachute and have never been on a skydive, I think you are wrong.    Spend the hundred bucks and go on a tandem dive.  Ask to be the one that pulls the chord and steers and tell him a few goals you would like to accomplish with the training rather than just going for a "ride".  The confidence it builds will be a great help.



I know a few who have been in GA aircraft who have landed off field and been ok, I know a few who have died.  I know of 2 personally who have bailed and been fine and there are countless stories of those who could have bailed who are no longer with us.



Every so often, practice your emergency egress.  Unless you have plenty of altitude I think rolling upside down is not a great idea - especially if you do aerobatics with primarily positive G's.  If you have the plane trimmed for upright flight and you roll upside down and let go with the intent to get out, I think bad things will happen.  If you have other thoughts on why this is a good idea I am all ears, but overall I think this is a terrible idea unless you have significant time in hands off, trimmed inverted flight.  My plan is to trade airspeed for altitude, trim for a slight climb to level at approximately 70 knots (Yak 50), canopy open, belt off, diving out the right side one foot on the seat and one off the opposite side to dive below the elevator.  Left hand is protecting my nugget,  and right hand moving towards the rip cord.  Arch, look for the plane and pull.  



Canopy, visor, mask, seatkit, LPU, 4line, steer, prepare, land.  (Military checklist for operating the chute.  Delete as necessary)



If you are bailing out over trees, use your hands to cover your face and eyes. If you are going to hit power lines, think skinny.  Nugget to the side and arms up on the risers with palms facing out.  Over water, act like you are going to hit the ground, bend your knees and roll on your side on landing just in case the water is shallow.  



Next time you have the chute repacked, ask if you can pull the chord while wearing the chute and feel the force it takes to pull.  Also check the type of chute you have and ask the rigger for a few lessons on how to use it.  Those guys are generally more than happy to share a little time if it will help save your life.



What ever you are going to do, have a plan.  If you wear a chute and have no idea when you might use it I challenge you to come up with a matrix of your own and have a reason for what you are doing.  



Knock on wood implied.



-j

Stu

Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:57 am Post subject: Re: April 2010 Yak 50 Engine Failure in UK

Thanks Greasysideup.  Your post is what I was looking for.  Some of us may disagree with some parts of your policy but I like the fact that it is clear and readily applied in time we have to make these decisions before it is too late.

_________________
Stewart Nicholson
Yak 52 N122GC

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