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tp9/tp10 retention

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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:51 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

I am just about to fettle up the tailplane torque tube holes and bond the bearings into the fuselage, but I thought I remembered that there was some talk a while back of an improved TP9/TP10 retention mod, maybe even a factory approved scheme (as opposed to Bob Harrison's and Phil Tunney's clamps, and the factory Loctite approach). Am I dreaming or can anyone point me in the right direction?



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

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g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:25 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

Rowland



I have attached a copy of the review I did for LAA/Europa of the options.

Since then I have obtained details of two more variations

 	  Quote: 	
		  From Richard Collings and John Baker.  If you would like these I will send

them direct to you.
	




As you know (ie SB15 issued) the decision was to glue the joint.  After that

nobody was prepared to invest any time in developing a Europa fix.

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

TT_Pins_Options.pdf

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Patrick Tunney

Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 33

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: tp9/tp10 retention

Rowland



My adaption of Bob Harrison's torque tube clamp has now been approved by the LAA as a standard Mod (11906).



The Mod is currently fitted to 1 flying aircraft, 1 ready for test flight and two others in the build stage.



Europa have now re-designed the torque tube.



Best Regards



Pat Tunney



www.europaxs.com

jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:34 pm Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

Rowland,

I have a set of Bob Harrison's torque tube clamps - not fitted yet, so I 

thought I 'd weigh them for you: about 300g each.

I think it's worth it but you may - reasonably I suppose - think 

differently.

Jan de Jong

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:15 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

Rowland

 I have had a set of Bob Harrison's torque tube clamp's fitted for three years and 300 hours and there isn't any movement

 in the pins and i know i can easily remove the tube for maintenance if necessary,

 I am very glad that they are more or less a fit and forget feature,

 just my two penny's worth!

 Ivor Phillips

 On 26 February 2011 22:27, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>

 

Rowland,

I have a set of Bob Harrison's torque tube clamps - not fitted yet, so I thought I 'd weigh them for you: about 300g each.

I think it's worth it but you may - reasonably I suppose - think differently.

 Jan de Jong   

 ist Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

Richard Wheelwright

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: tp9/tp10 retention

Rowland,



        Pat Tunny's clamps are the way to go for my build. I did not need to drill the white nylon bush, as it may take a few attempts and in doing so you run the risk of making the TT holes bigger and this is where the unwanted movement is started. With Pat's clamps you set up the whole thing in one go, that includes the brass bushes too. then your dun. NO DRILLING. Easy and solid.



Richard

rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

On 26 Feb 2011, at 19:22, G-IANI wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have attached a copy of the review I did for LAA/Europa of the options


	


Ian - thanks very much for that document - very useful and comprehensive.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Since then I have obtained details of two more variations

> From Richard Collings and John Baker.  If you would like these I will send

 them direct to you.


	


Yes, please!



 	  Quote: 	
		   As you know (ie SB15 issued) the decision was to glue the joint.  After that

 nobody was prepared to invest any time in developing a Europa fix.


	


I had a message direct from Michel Auvray commending the glue method, but saying DON'T use Loctite 603. I will ask him why not, and what type he proposes instead.



In reviewing SB15 I don't seem to be able to find a copy of "PFA FSB- 006 issue 4" that specifies the inspection intervals. I though it would be in the Engineering part of the LAA website but I can't locate it.



Thanks again for your help.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:52 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

On 26 Feb 2011, at 21:09, Patrick Tunney wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   My adaption of Bob Harrison's torque tube clamp has now been approved by the LAA as a standard Mod (11906).


	


Pat - thanks for the info, and apologies for calling you Phil before - I was confusing you with another PT.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Europa have now re-designed the torque tube


	


I've not heard about this - how does the new design differ? As I've not bonded mine in yet, I might consider buying the new design. I have incorporated Factory Mod 62 (3/8" pins TP14) but would definitely consider a better engineering approach.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

flyingphil2

Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 117

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:55 am Post subject: Re: tp9/tp10 retention

Hi Rowland,



With regards to the new re-designed torque tube then I have one of these.  As Roger put it to me, the new torque tube no longer has any torque.



Basically the whole design has been beefed up and there are now only 2 pins involved, not 4, see attached photo.



My main concern when I received this was the weight increase.  My numbers are below:



Old Tube: 



TP4  -  1350g

2 x TP5 & TP6  -  270g

TP9  -  200g

2 x TP12  -  800g

Total  =  2.620kg or 5.776lb



New Tube:



TP4  -  1330g

2 x TP5 & TP6  -  330g

TP9  -  1250g

2 x TP12  -  1060g

Total  =  3.970kg or 8.752lb  -  52% above original.



NB.  (Pat Tunney's clamps would add 0.4kg bringing an original assembly to 3.0kg).



My mind was originally put at rest when I was told that monos (or conventional taildraggers as my aircraft is likely to be) like having an aft c of g and so this additional weight at the back would be ok.  I tried not to think about it too much and decided it would be ok ......



Hope that helps.



Regards,



Phil

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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

Wouldn't the same issue with hammering out of the holes (if not an interference fit) still apply to the two drive pins?



Just curious,

Pete

A239



On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 11:56 AM, flyingphil2 <ptiller(at)lolacars.com (ptiller(at)lolacars.com)> wrote:

  [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "flyingphil2" <ptiller(at)lolacars.com (ptiller(at)lolacars.com)>

   

 Hi Rowland,

 

 With regards to the new re-designed torque tube then I have one of these.  As Roger put it to me, the new torque tube no longer has any torque.

 

 Basically the whole design has been beefed up and there are now only 2 pins involved, not 4, see attached photo.

 

 My main concern when I received this was the weight increase.  My numbers are below:

 

 Old Tube:

 

 TP4  -  1350g

 2 x TP5 & TP6  -  270g

 TP9  -  200g

 2 x TP12  -  800g

 Total  =  2.620kg or 5.776lb

 

 New Tube:

 

 TP4  -  1330g

 2 x TP5 & TP6  -  330g

 TP9  -  1250g

 2 x TP12  -  1060g

 Total  =  3.970kg or 8.752lb  -  52% above original.

 

 NB.  (Pat Tunney's clamps would add 0.4kg bringing an original assembly to 3.0kg).

 

 My mind was originally put at rest when I was told that monos (or conventional taildraggers as my aircraft is likely to be) like having an aft c of g and so this additional weight at the back would be ok.  I tried not to think about it too much and decided it would be ok ......

   

 Hope that helps.

 

 Regards,

 

 Phil

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332375#332375

 

 

 

 

 Attachments:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/torque_tube_2_109.jpg

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:35 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

Phil



You could always put the battery in the original position under the cowling

on top of the foot well.  That would save you a great length of thick copper

cable.



Pete



--

mau11(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

Le 01/03/2011 18:18, Peter Zutrauen a écrit :      	  Quote: 	
		  Wouldn't the same issue with hammering out of the       holes (if not an interference fit) still apply to the two drive       pins?

       

       Just curious,

       Pete

       A239

       

       On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 11:56 AM,         flyingphil2 <ptiller(at)lolacars.com (ptiller(at)lolacars.com)>         wrote:

          	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by:           "flyingphil2" <ptiller(at)lolacars.com (ptiller(at)lolacars.com)>

           

           Hi Rowland,

           

           With regards to the new re-designed torque tube then I have           one of these.  As Roger put it to me, the new torque tube no           longer has any torque.

           

           Basically the whole design has been beefed up and there are           now only 2 pins involved, not 4, see attached photo.

           

           My main concern when I received this was the weight increase.            My numbers are below:

           

           Old Tube:

           

           TP4  -  1350g

           2 x TP5 & TP6  -  270g

           TP9  -  200g

           2 x TP12  -  800g

           Total  =  2.620kg or 5.776lb

           

           New Tube:

           

           TP4  -  1330g

           2 x TP5 & TP6  -  330g

           TP9  -  1250g

           2 x TP12  -  1060g

           Total  =  3.970kg or 8.752lb  -  52% above original.

           

           NB.  (Pat Tunney's clamps would add 0.4kg bringing an original           assembly to 3.0kg).

           

           My mind was originally put at rest when I was told that monos           (or conventional taildraggers as my aircraft is likely to be)           like having an aft c of g and so this additional weight at the           back would be ok.  I tried not to think about it too much and           decided it would be ok ......

           

           Hope that helps.

           

           Regards,

           

           Phil

           

           

           

           

           Read this topic online here:

           

           http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332375#332375

           

           

           

           

           Attachments:

           

           http://forums.matronics.com//files/torque_tube_2_109.jpg

           

           

           

           

           ===========

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

           ===========

           http://forums.matronics.com

           ===========

           le, List Admin.

           ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

           ===========

           

           

           

         

	
     	
     Hi Phil,

     Do you nhave pictures of a new design?

     Thanks

     

     [quote]-- 

Michel AUVRAY

      l

-----(*)-----[b]

richard.churchill-coleman
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:46 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

Hi Phil

  

 I received a mono kit from Roger in late 2007 and I'm ashamed to say that I haven't touched the torque tube yet to know if it is the heavier version you describe - and I haven't seen a revised build manual or Mod 73 exemption that would take it into account - please can you tell me when did you get the new version from Roger, to give me a guide as to whether mine might be the new version with my kit?

   

 Thanks

 regards

 Richard

 On 1 March 2011 16:56, flyingphil2 <ptiller(at)lolacars.com (ptiller(at)lolacars.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "flyingphil2" <ptiller(at)lolacars.com (ptiller(at)lolacars.com)>

 

Hi Rowland,



With regards to the new re-designed torque tube then I have one of these.  As Roger put it to me, the new torque tube no longer has any torque.



Basically the whole design has been beefed up and there are now only 2 pins involved, not 4, see attached photo.

 

My main concern when I received this was the weight increase.  My numbers are below:



Old Tube:



TP4  -  1350g

2 x TP5 & TP6  -  270g

TP9  -  200g

2 x TP12  -  800g

Total  =  2.620kg or 5.776lb

 

New Tube:



TP4  -  1330g

2 x TP5 & TP6  -  330g

TP9  -  1250g

2 x TP12  -  1060g

Total  =  3.970kg or 8.752lb  -  52% above original.



NB.  (Pat Tunney's clamps would add 0.4kg bringing an original assembly to 3.0kg).

 

My mind was originally put at rest when I was told that monos (or conventional taildraggers as my aircraft is likely to be) like having an aft c of g and so this additional weight at the back would be ok.  I tried not to think about it too much and decided it would be ok ......

 

Hope that helps.



Regards,



Phil





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332375#332375

 



Attachments:



http://forums.matronics.com====

 y Browse, Chat, FAQ,

 ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http:=====

  http://forums.mle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

flyingphil2

Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 117

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:57 am Post subject: Re: tp9/tp10 retention

Hi,



In response to other postings:



The thickness of the material involved is greatly increased.  I guess the 2 pins may eventually wear the holes and introduce play but I think the rest of the aeroplane may have worn out long before.



Michel - picture attached with my posting.



Richard - I purchased my Torque tube early last year and I think the design had been around for a while before (at least 6 months).  If you could post a picture of your tube then I/the forum could easily identify what type it is.



Regards,



Phil

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:25 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

Hi Phil,



Please excuse my lack of part number knowledge, but using descriptions instead:



- the center pushrod/counterweight driven assembly does indeed look thicker - and no longer stainless steel?

- the tailplane drive assemblies however look similar to the the original ones as far as material thickness is concerned... do they indeed have significantly thicker gauge tubes?

   

Cheers & thx,

Pete

A239



On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 7:57 AM, flyingphil2 <ptiller(at)lolacars.com (ptiller(at)lolacars.com)> wrote:

  [quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: "flyingphil2" <ptiller(at)lolacars.com (ptiller(at)lolacars.com)>

 

 Hi,

 

 In response to other postings:

 

 The thickness of the material involved is greatly increased.  I guess the 2 pins may eventually wear the holes and introduce play but I think the rest of the aeroplane may have worn out long before.

 

 Michel - picture attached with my posting.

 

 Richard - I purchased my Torque tube early last year and I think the design had been around for a while before (at least 6 months).  If you could post a picture of your tube then I/the forum could easily identify what type it is.

    

 Regards,

 

 Phil

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332467#332467

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

flyingphil2

Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 117

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:26 am Post subject: Re: tp9/tp10 retention

Hi Peter,



You would have to check with the factory on this but:



1.  Centre section (originally TP9) is beefed up and on the grounds that it is zinc plated, it won't be stainless steel.

2.  The tailplane drive assemblies (TP12) are heavier according to my numbers and so yes, they are a thicker gauge.  Not sure how much thicker.



Regards,



Phil

roger(at)middlecave.plus.
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

Hi Richard,

  

 Although now retired I still follow the forum, so I  noticed your query.

  

 The new torque tube only came in shortly before I  retired at Xmas 2009, say mid 2009 from memory, so yours will definitely not be  the new heavier one.

  

 Best wishes for the build,

  

 Roger Bull

  



 [quote]   ---

mau11(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:07 am Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

Le 03/03/2011 15:10, Roger Bull a écrit :     [quote]                                     Hi Richard,

          

         Although now retired I still             follow the forum, so I noticed your query.

          

         The new torque tube only came             in shortly before I retired at Xmas 2009, say mid 2009 from             memory, so yours will definitely not be the new heavier one.

          

         Best wishes for the build,

          

         Roger Bull

          

       

       [quote]         ---

kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:01 pm Post subject: tp9/tp10 retention

G'day Roger, greetings from Oz.  Nice to  know your'e still lurking on the list.  Now please tell me retirement is  good . . . .  mine is very imminent too!

  

 Cheers

 Kingsley

  

 do not archive

  

  

 [quote]   ---

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