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richard.goode(at)russiana
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 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:52 am Post subject: Engine failure |
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We had a Su-26 that had a ground strike-reasonably hard,and lost about 10 inches from one blade [2-blade].
Against advice the owner just put on a new prop and went flying.About 4 hours later,when taxiing in,after aerobatics,one of the satellite gears in the gearbox broke up and the gearbox locked solid,and this broke 2 of the 4 engine mounts.
Had it happened a couple of minutes earlier,at full power,I’m sure the engine would have come out!!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
[quote][b]
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radiopicture
Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:24 am Post subject: Engine failure |
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I was wondering if the Yak-50 seizure was really sudden. Seems like it may have reached it's seizure somewhat gradually.
On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:49 AM, Richard Goode wrote:
| Quote: | We had a Su-26 that had a ground strike-reasonably hard,and lost about 10 inches from one blade [2-blade].
Against advice the owner just put on a new prop and went flying.About 4 hours later,when taxiing in,after aerobatics,one of the satellite gears in the gearbox broke up and the gearbox locked solid,and this broke 2 of the 4 engine mounts.
Had it happened a couple of minutes earlier,at full power,I’m sure the engine would have come out!!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
| Quote: |
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[quote][b]
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject: Engine failure |
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Well this is exactly what I was talking about Richard, and you've given this advice before.
My point is simply this.... an engine was run without oil until it seized. As you said, several pistons were welded to the cylinders. I'd call this a pretty dramatic example of an engine that locked up.
The prop was spinning and developing power at the time. Instead of the engine coming out of the mounts, the mounts were not even damaged. Instead, the planetary gears let go and the prop continued to windmill.
This tells me that it is hard to really know WHAT is going to happen. Obviously if the parts in the engine hold together and everything stops very quickly, engine mounts can fail as they become the weak link. On the other hand, it is very possible that if the engine was operating at full power, the gears that let go could have been crushed into powder and the prop would have ended up spinning around just like the one you just reported on did.
I would think that there must be some sort of data on this someplace. Radial engines have been shot to pieces for many years. They are renowned for running as long as they have oil in them even with cylinders blasted off by anti-aircraft fire. I've not seen reports of them busting out of their mounts and departing the aircraft.
A lot of these Housai and M-14 engines have failed in many ways, and I have yet to hear of one instance of the engine coming out of the mounts and departing the aircraft.
This is not to say that you are wrong. This is not to say I have more experience than you do. I very clearly do NOT. However, being an engineering mentality, I like to see the data when something like this is said.
Prop strikes on M-14 engines is a very nebulous topic. Advice runs the full gamut and depending on who you talk to, if you scrape the paint on the blades you need a full engine tear-down, while many others take a more pragmatic viewpoint. Clearly in the matter of prop strikes, how much you grind off and exactly how it happened come into play with that decision. I've read what you have written on prop strikes, and also what others have said as well, and many of them I consider experts too. Then there are those that always advise to err on the side of safety... although they have no personal expertise what-so-ever. I've looked into this subject and studied it for about a month now very carefully and the real answer I have come up with is: IT DEPENDS.
But coming back to the topic at hand .... have we any documented cases of M-14 engines failing under power and ripping themselves right out of the mounts? Failing M-14's, what about any other radials of any era, model, or design? I'm not debating here, I am really just very interested in the facts.
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Sat, 3/5/11, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>
Subject: Engine failure
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 4:49 AM
We had a Su-26 that had a ground strike-reasonably hard,and lost about 10 inches from one blade [2-blade].
Against advice the owner just put on a new prop and went flying.About 4 hours later,when taxiing in,after aerobatics,one of the satellite gears in the gearbox broke up and the gearbox locked solid,and this broke 2 of the 4 engine mounts.
Had it happened a couple of minutes earlier,at full power,I’m sure the engine would have come out!!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
| Quote: |
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[quote][b]
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:27 am Post subject: Engine failure |
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Jurgis Kairius lost an entire blade from his Su-31 prop,at full power,and [very luckily] at low level,and with a lot of runway ahead of him.
But the gearbox,with what was left of the prop tore off the engine;all the engine mounts were either broken /bent /cracked.Also quite a lot of damage to other parts of the airframe-and this on probably the strongest airframe that there is!!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel:Â +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: 06 March 2011 03:05
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine failure
Well this is exactly what I was talking about Richard, and you've given this advice before.
My point is simply this.... an engine was run without oil until it seized. As you said, several pistons were welded to the cylinders. I'd call this a pretty dramatic example of an engine that locked up.
The prop was spinning and developing power at the time. Instead of the engine coming out of the mounts, the mounts were not even damaged. Instead, the planetary gears let go and the prop continued to windmill.
This tells me that it is hard to really know WHAT is going to happen. Obviously if the parts in the engine hold together and everything stops very quickly, engine mounts can fail as they become the weak link. On the other hand, it is very possible that if the engine was operating at full power, the gears that let go could have been crushed into powder and the prop would have ended up spinning around just like the one you just reported on did.
I would think that there must be some sort of data on this someplace. Radial engines have been shot to pieces for many years. They are renowned for running as long as they have oil in them even with cylinders blasted off by anti-aircraft fire. I've not seen reports of them busting out of their mounts and departing the aircraft.
A lot of these Housai and M-14 engines have failed in many ways, and I have yet to hear of one instance of the engine coming out of the mounts and departing the aircraft.
This is not to say that you are wrong. This is not to say I have more experience than you do. I very clearly do NOT. However, being an engineering mentality, I like to see the data when something like this is said.
Prop strikes on M-14 engines is a very nebulous topic. Advice runs the full gamut and depending on who you talk to, if you scrape the paint on the blades you need a full engine tear-down, while many others take a more pragmatic viewpoint. Clearly in the matter of prop strikes, how much you grind off and exactly how it happened come into play with that decision. I've read what you have written on prop strikes, and also what others have said as well, and many of them I consider experts too. Then there are those that always advise to err on the side of safety... although they have no personal expertise what-so-ever. I've looked into this subject and studied it for about a month now very carefully and the real answer I have come up with is: IT DEPENDS.
But coming back to the topic at hand .... have we any documented cases of M-14 engines failing under power and ripping themselves right out of the mounts? Failing M-14's, what about any other radials of any era, model, or design? I'm not debating here, I am really just very interested in the facts.
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Sat, 3/5/11, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>
Subject: Engine failure
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 4:49 AM
We had a Su-26 that had a ground strike-reasonably hard,and lost about 10 inches from one blade [2-blade].
Against advice the owner just put on a new prop and went flying.About 4 hours later,when taxiing in,after aerobatics,one of the satellite gears in the gearbox broke up and the gearbox locked solid,and this broke 2 of the 4 engine mounts.
Had it happened a couple of minutes earlier,at full power,I’m sure the engine would have come out!! |
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
| Quote: | | =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listet=_blank>http://forums.matronics.comllow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: Engine failure |
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Curious if this thread is motivated by the thought that the M14 is more prone to coming apart than, say, a radial Pratt & Whitney?
Would that be due to the fact that the M14 has a reduction gear box, where as the others don't?
If so, perhaps the group could detrmine where the weakness in the design is, and suggest fixes?
+--
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:27 am Post subject: Engine failure |
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Losing a blade on a propeller will cause a massive imbalance and will clearly tend to pull any engine out of any airframe ever made. There are indeed recorded cases of that happening with many models of engines and airframes be it radial or opposed (flat) engine designs.
This in fact happened at MCAS Cherry Point where a VariEze had a prop fail in flight (again a single blade came off) and the engine ripped right out of the aircraft and fell onto the field. The aircraft managed to land safety at MCAS Cherry Point, which considering the weight and balance issues, is an amazing feat unto itself.
It is clear that the gyroscopic imbalance caused by such a catastrophic failure will cause instantaneous torque loads well beyond what any structural design anticipated. So clearly what happened to Jurgis in your example is clear proof that this kind of failure can pull an engine out of it's mounts and anyone that has that happen to them is lucky to walk away from.
However, this is not the type of failure that I was trying to gain insight on Richard.
Mark
--- On Sun, 3/6/11, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>
Subject: RE: Engine failure
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, March 6, 2011, 4:24 AM
Jurgis Kairius lost an entire blade from his Su-31 prop,at full power,and [very luckily] at low level,and with a lot of runway ahead of him.
But the gearbox,with what was left of the prop tore off the engine;all the engine mounts were either broken /bent /cracked.Also quite a lot of damage to other parts of the airframe-and this on probably the strongest airframe that there is!!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: 06 March 2011 03:05
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine failure
Well this is exactly what I was talking about Richard, and you've given this advice before.
My point is simply this.... an engine was run without oil until it seized. As you said, several pistons were welded to the cylinders. I'd call this a pretty dramatic example of an engine that locked up.
The prop was spinning and developing power at the time. Instead of the engine coming out of the mounts, the mounts were not even damaged. Instead, the planetary gears let go and the prop continued to windmill.
This tells me that it is hard to really know WHAT is going to happen. Obviously if the parts in the engine hold together and everything stops very quickly, engine mounts can fail as they become the weak link. On the other hand, it is very possible that if the engine was operating at full power, the gears that let go could have been crushed into powder and the prop would have ended up spinning around just like the one you just reported on did.
I would think that there must be some sort of data on this someplace. Radial engines have been shot to pieces for many years. They are renowned for running as long as they have oil in them even with cylinders blasted off by anti-aircraft fire. I've not seen reports of them busting out of their mounts and departing the aircraft.
A lot of these Housai and M-14 engines have failed in many ways, and I have yet to hear of one instance of the engine coming out of the mounts and departing the aircraft.
This is not to say that you are wrong. This is not to say I have more experience than you do. I very clearly do NOT. However, being an engineering mentality, I like to see the data when something like this is said.
Prop strikes on M-14 engines is a very nebulous topic. Advice runs the full gamut and depending on who you talk to, if you scrape the paint on the blades you need a full engine tear-down, while many others take a more pragmatic viewpoint. Clearly in the matter of prop strikes, how much you grind off and exactly how it happened come into play with that decision. I've read what you have written on prop strikes, and also what others have said as well, and many of them I consider experts too. Then there are those that always advise to err on the side of safety... although they have no personal expertise what-so-ever. I've looked into this subject and studied it for about a month now very carefully and the real answer I have come up with is: IT DEPENDS.
But coming back to the topic at hand .... have we any documented cases of M-14 engines failing under power and ripping themselves right out of the mounts? Failing M-14's, what about any other radials of any era, model, or design? I'm not debating here, I am really just very interested in the facts.
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Sat, 3/5/11, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>
Subject: Engine failure
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 4:49 AM
We had a Su-26 that had a ground strike-reasonably hard,and lost about 10 inches from one blade [2-blade].
Against advice the owner just put on a new prop and went flying.About 4 hours later,when taxiing in,after aerobatics,one of the satellite gears in the gearbox broke up and the gearbox locked solid,and this broke 2 of the 4 engine mounts.
Had it happened a couple of minutes earlier,at full power,I’m sure the engine would have come out!!
|
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
| Quote: | | =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listet=_blank>http://forums.matronics.comllow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
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radiopicture
Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: Engine failure |
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I don't take that from this thread. Many Pratts and other radials have gear reduction. Gear box failure isn't a common cause of total engine failure in the M-14P or any other radial. The incident Richard Goode referred to involved a prop strike where one blade was sheared off at the root!! The airplane was then flown without teardown, and I think it was a satellite gear that failed and caused gearbox seizure. Can't blame the engine for that.
If there were an inherent design flaw, no one in this group would be fixing it.
On Mar 6, 2011, at 1:15 PM, William Halverson wrote:
[quote]
Curious if this thread is motivated by the thought that the M14 is more prone to coming apart than, say, a radial Pratt & Whitney?
Would that be due to the fact that the M14 has a reduction gear box, where as the others don't?
If so, perhaps the group could detrmine where the weakness in the design is, and suggest fixes?
+--
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:58 pm Post subject: Engine failure |
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Concur with Eric.
The M-14 is not "prone" to coming apart at all. In fact, just the opposite. It is an extremely strong engine with a superior design. Anyone who has taken one apart and looked at the insides of this engine will know tha
The M-14 radial develops more power to weight that any Pratt and Whitney ever flown. The Russians have made a damn good engine and I am proud to be the owner of one... well.... actually two.
My questions are pointed towards what exact inspections are recommended following prop strikes. Just to let everyone know... the FAA listens in to these conversations. My initial reaction to this fact was to "cover up and check six". After some more thought, my reaction is: "so what?". I hope they listen in and realize that the folks that are involved with this list server are interested in learning more about the engines and airplanes they fly in (and behind). I am NOT going to be afraid of what the FAA reads on the "YAK LIST" and neither should anyone else. Enough said.
--- On Sun, 3/6/11, Eric Wobschall <eric(at)buffaloskyline.com> wrote:
[quote] From: Eric Wobschall <eric(at)buffaloskyline.com>
Subject: Re: Engine failure
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, March 6, 2011, 2:29 PM
Eric Wobschall <eric(at)buffaloskyline.com>
I don't take that from this thread. Many Pratts and other
radials have gear reduction. Gear box failure isn't a common
cause of total engine failure in the M-14P or any other
radial. The incident Richard Goode referred to involved a
prop strike where one blade was sheared off at the root!!
The airplane was then flown without teardown, and I think it
was a satellite gear that failed and caused gearbox seizure.
Can't blame the engine for that.
If there were an inherent design flaw, no one in this group
would be fixing it.
On Mar 6, 2011, at 1:15 PM, William Halverson wrote:
>
<william(at)netpros.net>
>
>
> Curious if this thread is motivated by the thought
that the M14 is more prone to coming apart than, say, a
radial Pratt & Whitney?
>
> Would that be due to the fact that the M14 has a
reduction gear box, where as the others don't?
>
> If so, perhaps the group could detrmine where the
weakness in the design is, and suggest fixes?
>
>
> +--
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k7wx
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:04 pm Post subject: Engine failure |
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My experience with the FFA and my CJ has been uniformly positive. Had my aircraft re-inspected last Thursday morning by two FSDO guys following lots of changes: new registration number, M-14P engine, new prop, structural repairs, long range tanks, etc. As long as the paperwork and logbooks were all in order, they were happy. In fact, they were quite interested in why the changes were made and the advantages that came from all of this. Knowledgable, friendly and very professional. It was actually a pleasant experience. I think that as long as we stay within the regulations, we'll get treated no differently that anyone else.
Warren Hill
N464TW
On Mar 6, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Yak Pilot wrote:
[quote]
Concur with Eric.
The M-14 is not "prone" to coming apart at all. In fact, just the opposite. It is an extremely strong engine with a superior design. Anyone who has taken one apart and looked at the insides of this engine will know tha
The M-14 radial develops more power to weight that any Pratt and Whitney ever flown. The Russians have made a damn good engine and I am proud to be the owner of one... well.... actually two.
My questions are pointed towards what exact inspections are recommended following prop strikes. Just to let everyone know... the FAA listens in to these conversations. My initial reaction to this fact was to "cover up and check six". After some more thought, my reaction is: "so what?". I hope they listen in and realize that the folks that are involved with this list server are interested in learning more about the engines and airplanes they fly in (and behind). I am NOT going to be afraid of what the FAA reads on the "YAK LIST" and neither should anyone else. Enough said.
--- On Sun, 3/6/11, Eric Wobschall <eric(at)buffaloskyline.com> wrote:
> From: Eric Wobschall <eric(at)buffaloskyline.com>
> Subject: Re: Engine failure
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, March 6, 2011, 2:29 PM
>
> Eric Wobschall <eric(at)buffaloskyline.com>
>
> I don't take that from this thread. Many Pratts and other
> radials have gear reduction. Gear box failure isn't a common
> cause of total engine failure in the M-14P or any other
> radial. The incident Richard Goode referred to involved a
> prop strike where one blade was sheared off at the root!!
> The airplane was then flown without teardown, and I think it
> was a satellite gear that failed and caused gearbox seizure.
> Can't blame the engine for that.
>
> If there were an inherent design flaw, no one in this group
> would be fixing it.
>
>
> On Mar 6, 2011, at 1:15 PM, William Halverson wrote:
>
>>
> <william(at)netpros.net>
>>
>>
>> Curious if this thread is motivated by the thought
> that the M14 is more prone to coming apart than, say, a
> radial Pratt & Whitney?
>>
>> Would that be due to the fact that the M14 has a
> reduction gear box, where as the others don't?
>>
>> If so, perhaps the group could detrmine where the
> weakness in the design is, and suggest fixes?
>>
>>
>> +--
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