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Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

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lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:48 pm Post subject: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

Hi all,



I'm going to be replacing my oil lines soon but I've never done a full purge and reprime of a 912 oil system before. So have a couple questions about it:



- I have an oil thermostat installed like this one:

http://www.rotaxparts.net/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1302

Is there anything in particular I have to pay attention to to make sure the oil cooler gets properly filled up with this inline? The documentation for it says it's partially open even when cold so I assume it fills up by itself. But not sure. Anyone know?



- the manual says to pull the valve covers off and physically check for play in the lifters afterwards (i.e. for the presence of air in them). Is that necessarily still after just breaking the oil circuit open to change the lines? Don't know if that's only for new engines or ?



Thanks,

LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:44 pm Post subject: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

LS,



I discuss this on my Pipistrel project web site.  Here's a link to the Firewall Forward page.  Scroll down the page to the entries for 

 Dec 5, 2010, Dec 18th, 2010 and Jan 2nd, 2011.  I found that the partially open position of the thermostat when cold wasn't enough to get all the lines full of oil, and you definitely want to get all the air out of them.  

 

I would check the lifters as well, although they may remain full of oil.  The problem is that you will be turning the prop through a number of revolutions before the system is full of oil again, so the oil may be squeezed out of the lifters, at least to some degree.  Follow the procedure described in the Rotax 912 Installation Manual, section 31.11 (available in the Documentation area of the Rotax web site).  It will be easy to see of the lifters need to be re-primed.  There is also a video of the priming procedure available on the Rotax Owners site.  If you don't already have a subscription to this site, I recommend it for an excellent information resource (in addition to this forum).

 

Regards,

Paul Kuntz

Pipistrel Sinus 912 kit serial 196



On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 3:48 PM, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

  

 Hi all,

 

 I'm going to be replacing my oil lines soon but I've never done a full purge and reprime of a 912 oil system before. So have a couple questions about it:

 

 - I have an oil thermostat installed like this one:

 http://www.rotaxparts.net/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1302

 Is there anything in particular I have to pay attention to to make sure the oil cooler gets properly filled up with this inline? The documentation for it says it's partially open even when cold so I assume it fills up by itself. But not sure. Anyone know?

  

 - the manual says to pull the valve covers off and physically check for play in the lifters afterwards (i.e. for the presence of air in them). Is that necessarily still after just breaking the oil circuit open to change the lines? Don't know if that's only for new engines or ?

  

 Thanks,

 LS

 

 --------

 LS

 Titan II SS

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=334002#334002

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 le, List Admin.

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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

Yes you need to do a purge if you break the lines or repalce them. It really isn't hard.

You can use a heat gun on the thermostat to open it up for a good purge and as suggested look at the video on the ROAN website. It is very good in showing you what to do.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  Yes you need to do a purge if you break the lines or repalce them. It really isn't hard.

You can use a heat gun on the thermostat to open it up for a good purge and as suggested look at the video on the ROAN website. It is very good in showing you what to do. 	




Ok, thanks gents for the info. I'm assuming pulling the valve covers to check the lifters for priming should also be treated as "mandatory"? I'm more paranoid about that than just doing the purge . I.e. the expensive gaskets and of course with my luck they'll probably leak after pulling them off and putting back on... 



Thanks,

LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

Hi Lucien,



You should check the lifters because you may inject a very large air bubble from the drained hose and inject too much air. I have been know at times to pre-fill oil hoses after I get one end connected and just before hooking up the other.  Checking the lifters is fairly easy.  Technically Rotax likes new "O" rings when you pull the old ones, but you will most likely be good to go using the old ones. The worst that can happen with an old valve cover "O" is a slight ooze if it leaks, then you could replace it. Still it's better with new ones. Torque the valve covers to 105 in/lbs., 90 in/lbs is the old value. Don't forget to put a .002 feeler gauge between the valve covers for spacing so they don't touch each other as you torque them down..

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Last edited by Roger Lee on Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  Hi Lucien,



You should check the lifters because you may inject a very large air bubble from the drained hose and inject too much air. I have been know at times to pre-fill oil hoses after I get one end connected and just before hooking up the other.  Checking the lifters is fairly easy.  Technically Rotax likes new "O" rings when you pull the old ones, but you will most likely be good to go using the old ones. The worst that can happen with an old valve cover "O" is a slight ooze if it leaks, then you could replace it. Torque the valve covers to 105 in/lbs., 90 in/lbs is the old value. Don't forget to put a .002 feeler gauge between the valve covers for spacing so they don't touch each other as you torque them down.. 	




Ok, thanks Roger. If Roger says it, well it's going to be done on my motor, so there we have it .



Cut, pasted and saved and I'm ordering gaskets today. That way I'll have new ones in case I do any damage pulling the covers off....



Thanks gents,



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:26 am Post subject: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

Why would you not do an oil and filter change, run the engine for 10 minutes and then repeat the 

changes?

Much less likely to have problems.

Dave Austin  601HDS  912UL

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

 	  paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  LS,



I discuss this on my Pipistrel project web site.ï¿½ Here's a link to the Firewall Forward page.ï¿½ Scroll down the page to the entries for 

 Dec 5, 2010, Dec 18th, 2010 and Jan 2nd, 2011.ï¿½ I found that the partially open position of the thermostat when cold wasn't enough to get all the lines full of oil, and you definitely want to get all the air out of them.ï¿½ 

 

I would check the lifters as well, although they may remain full of oil.ï¿½ The problem is that you will be turning the prop through a number of revolutions before the system is full of oil again, so the oil may be squeezed out of the lifters, at least to some degree.ï¿½ Follow the procedure described in the Rotax 912 Installation Manual, section 31.11 (available in the Documentation area of the Rotax web site).ï¿½ It will be easy to see of the lifters need to be re-primed.ï¿½ There is also a video of the priming procedure available on the Rotax Owners site.ï¿½ If you don't already have a subscription to this site, I recommend it for an excellent information resource (in addition to this forum).

 

Regards,

Paul Kuntz

Pipistrel Sinus 912 kit serial 196

	




Ok, thanks Paul. This sounds like practically a 4-man job! 1 with a heat gun on the oil tank, 1 with a heat gun on the thermostat, 1 pressurizing the tank and 1 cranking the prop! 



However, I have this idea that may reduce it to only 2. Perhaps heating the tank only with a heat gun first till it's up to about 200. then doing the cranking, checking for warmth in the hoses going to the oil filter during the priming operation. Hopefully indicating oil is getting in there... 



pre-filling the lines like Roger talks about sounds like it would help too. What you guys think?



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

Hi Lucien,



It is really a one man job.   

I usually only pre-fill a hose if I'm only going to do just one hose. It may be a little cumbersome to do that with all the hoses. You know pre-heating the oil to 200F sounds doable. It would open the thermostat at 180F, interesting idea.  Just a normal purge should be just fine with the thermostat open. The tank's pressure can be continuous and its pressure set by a regulator. It will leak air because it is not air tight and that's okay because the regulator will keep the pressure constant. Just pour your (hot or normal temp) oil in, set the pressure and rotate the prop. 1 guy.

If he is changing all the lines then he has done an oil change provided you drain the tank. A new filter is good, but not necessary to change it after a few minutes. You shouldn't damage a valve cover "O" ring unless you cut it with something. Just pulling it off shouldn't be an issue. Some covers are kind of glued on after a long time of never being removed. Don't shove knife blades down in between, it make gouge out the sealing surface. Just use a rubber mallet and tap it gently.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

mortweaver(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:56 am Post subject: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

A few years back a tech at Lockwood told me that older 912-UL engines do not require any purging of the oil system and it only applies to newer engines incorporating a valve lifter design change.  I would advise checking with a Rotax repair station for the engine serial number and date the change was made.  I did not log the info I was given at the time...my engine was not affected by the change.  

 Dave Weaver N912GR 



--- On Wed, 3/16/11, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2011, 12:17 PM



 --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>



Hi Lucien,



It is really a one man job.   

I usually only pre-fill a hose if I'm only going to do just one hose. It may be a little cumbersome to do that with all the hoses. You know pre-heating the oil to 200F sounds doable. It would open the thermostat at 180F, interesting idea.  Just a normal purge should be just fine with the thermostat open. The tank's pressure can be continuous and its pressure set by a regulator. It will leak air because it is not air tight and that's okay because the regulator will keep the pressure constant. Just pour your (hot or normal temp) oil in, set the pressure and rotate the prop. 1 guy.

If he is changing all the lines then he has done an oil change provided you drain the  tank. A new filter is good, but not necessary to change it after a few minutes. You shouldn't damage a valve cover "O" ring unless you cut it with something. Just pulling it off shouldn't be an issue. Some covers are kind of glued on after a long time of never being removed. Don't shove knife blades down in between, it make gouge out the sealing surface. Just use a rubber mallet and tap it gently.



--------

Roger Lee

Tucson, Az.

Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

Rotax Repair Center

Home 520-574-1080  TRY HOME FIRST

Cell 520-349-7056





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/vir?RotaxEngines-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rotsp;              - MATRONICS WEB FO                     &nbsf="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matr=====================





	
 [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  Hi Lucien,



It is really a one man job.   

I usually only pre-fill a hose if I'm only going to do just one hose. It may be a little cumbersome to do that with all the hoses. You know pre-heating the oil to 200F sounds doable. It would open the thermostat at 180F, interesting idea.  Just a normal purge should be just fine with the thermostat open. The tank's pressure can be continuous and its pressure set by a regulator. It will leak air because it is not air tight and that's okay because the regulator will keep the pressure constant. Just pour your (hot or normal temp) oil in, set the pressure and rotate the prop. 1 guy.

If he is changing all the lines then he has done an oil change provided you drain the tank. A new filter is good, but not necessary to change it after a few minutes. You shouldn't damage a valve cover "O" ring unless you cut it with something. Just pulling it off shouldn't be an issue. Some covers are kind of glued on after a long time of never being removed. Don't shove knife blades down in between, it make gouge out the sealing surface. Just use a rubber mallet and tap it gently. 	




Hi Roger,



Ok, thanks for the info and encouragement. I'll probably also try the pre-filling of the lines idea in the oil cooler and lines on the other side of the thermostat. Probably all of them, but particularly those.



I ordered new valve cover gasket sets so I generally wont have to worry much about accidentally ruining the old ones. I'll reuse them for the first engine run (if it leaks for that who cares) and then simply put the new ones in when I button it up after the final check of the lifters. 



Any recommendations on a low pressure regulator? My air compressor has a regulator on it too but it's very inaccurate at pressures like 15 PSI. Is it something I can add in line or ?



Thanks,



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

Hi Lucien,



CPS has a nice little oil purge regulator kit. You could put it at the end of your airline without any problem and regulate the air pressure right at your plane.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:51 am Post subject: Purging 912ULS oil system with oil thermostat installed

Lucian,

  I bought a small low pressure regulator at Harbour Freight and made  my own kit for low air pressure on the oil tank. Attached it at the end of  the hose with a quick disconnect

  Also,I have done the valve lifter check on my engine at least 5  times because of the problem I was having with the prop flipping backwards about  3 revolutions at shutdown.( I thought about putting Velcro to fasten   my cowl vs Dzus buttons) I fixed that problem by removing the  Warp and  installing a lighter Kiev prop. The valve covers have been  removed that many times and the old seals reused. They have not leaked so I  don't think you will have a problem.

  Be careful you don,t drop the valve covers.

                                            Dick Maddux

                                           Milton,Fl   

 [quote][b]

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