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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: Engine prices

G'day all,   

Time to spend some BIG bucks.   

Can anyone please explain why there is such a price differential between the Vans and Aerosport Power IO540s at ~$42K, versus Mattitucks TMXIO540 at $34K?  I am a 'queer trader' by profession (Electronic Systems) and this 'black hander' stuff is all voodoo to me.  I am totally ignorant on all engine related issues, so be gentle . . .  

thanks in advance,  

Ron   

#187

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: Engine prices

Van’s is a certified version of the IO-540.  Mattituck is Lycoming’s experimental version.  I don’t know on the Aerosport, but I assume they are also with the experimental.  Don’t know the reason for the $8K difference between Mattituck and Aerosport.  I know BPA costs more than Mattituck, and you get more services for the price, which Allen would be happy to explain if you contact him.  I don’t know almost anything about Aerosport.  

     

Jesse Saint  

I-TEC, Inc.  

jesse(at)itecusa.org  

www.itecusa.org  

352-465-4545  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron

 Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:32 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Engine prices  

  

   

G'day all,   

Time to spend some BIG bucks.   

Can anyone please explain why there is such a price differential between the Vans and Aerosport Power IO540s at ~$42K, versus Mattitucks TMXIO540 at $34K?  I am a 'queer trader' by profession (Electronic Systems) and this 'black hander' stuff is all voodoo to me.  I am totally ignorant on all engine related issues, so be gentle . . .  

thanks in advance, 

 Ron 

 #187

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: Engine prices

Van's price is for a certified Lycoming. the Aero Sport and Mattituck 

are experimantal  (i.e. the name plate on the engine is from the engine 

builder vs Lycoming. They are built from kits that the engine builders 

get from Lycoming which contain new parts.  There was a price increase 

not too long ago and it has taken some time  for the builders to update 

their web sites. I suspect that Mattitucks price is  now closer to 

Aerosport, BPS, G&N etc.



 Deems Davis # 406

Fuse

http://deemsrv10.com/



McGANN, Ron wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   G'day all,



 Time to spend some BIG bucks.



 Can anyone please explain why there is such a price differential 

 between the Vans and Aerosport Power IO540s at ~$42K, versus 

 Mattitucks TMXIO540 at $34K?  I am a 'queer trader' by profession 

 (Electronic Systems) and this 'black hander' stuff is all voodoo to 

 me.  I am totally ignorant on all engine related issues, so be gentle 

 . . .



 thanks in advance,

 Ron

 #187

ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject: Engine prices

There's only ~$1K difference between the Vans and Aerosport engines, yet Vans is certified.  Why would anyone buy an experimental from Aero Sport??   What are the extra 'bangs' that you get for your Aero Sport 'bucks'??  

The high performance BPA engine looks like a great package, but throw in the required ceramic exhaust and a non standard cowl and it becomes an expensive proposition.  

--

coop85(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: Engine prices

I haven’t looked at the prices lately to be honest, but when I ordered my Aerosport it was quite a bit cheaper when you factor in all the options.  The trick is to make sure you are comparing apples to apples.  For example, the Aerosport engines come balanced, the others (at least when I was looking), charged extra and of course is not available on a factory engine.  Electronic ignition is another differentiator.  I would recommend getting a breakout of all the prices, options and what’s included then do a good comparison.  One thing I was impressed with was Aerosport’s 3 year warranty from first flight.  That exceeded the others I looked at.  

   

Marcus  

   

Do Not Archive.  

   

--

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: Engine prices

Aerosport does rebuilt engines, too, right?



TDT

do not archive

--

coop85(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: Engine prices

Yes, they do sell rebuilt engines.  The potential snag is a delay finding a

core.  I wasn't willing to wait so went for the "kit" engine.  When I

ordered the engine last Nov, the delay could be at least 3 months to find a

core.  If not in a hurry I'm sure that would save some $$$.



Marcus

Do Not Archive

--

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: Engine prices

When I bought, I paid many thousand less at the time.  And Marcus

is right that it isn't really apples to apples.  The new Lycs

would just come with mags, and nothing too special.  On mine,

I got precision balancing, porting, flow matching injectors,

Titan cylinders....not standard, Lightspeed Plasma III including

having the system mounted and the ring gear drilled.  Starter,

oil filter adapter, and reiff preheat system.  All for the

price at the time of $33.5K ballpark.  At that time, that

was a fairly good deal.  Today it would be a steal.  I actually

get some comfort from the fact that mine was a rebuild with

all parts to new limits....at least I know my crank isn't on

the lycoming list....not that the new ones are bad.  But, in

order to make a brand new Lycoming equivalent to one of the

quality rebuilds from Aerosport or Barrett, you'd have to put

a bit more money into it and have someone tear it down and

start over on some items like the balancing.  Also, ask about

3-angle valve jobs and such...you'll find comparing engine

deals gets a bit tougher when you look for some of the special

items.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Marcus Cooper wrote:

[quote] I haven’t looked at the prices lately to be honest, but when I ordered 

 my Aerosport it was quite a bit cheaper when you factor in all the 

 options.  The trick is to make sure you are comparing apples to apples.  

 For example, the Aerosport engines come balanced, the others (at least 

 when I was looking), charged extra and of course is not available on a 

 factory engine.  Electronic ignition is another differentiator.  I would 

 recommend getting a breakout of all the prices, options and what’s 

 included then do a good comparison.  One thing I was impressed with was 

 Aerosport’s 3 year warranty from first flight.  That exceeded the others 

 I looked at.

 

  

 

 Marcus

 

  

 

 Do Not Archive.

 

  

 

 --

ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: Engine prices

Great post Tim - but you did have to get your engine mount modified if I remember right .   

Being based in Australia, I'm not all that keen on having to return my engine mount for modification.  What should I look for to avoid the issues you had (problem with the oil pan if I recall)?  On the subject of returns, a three year warranty period looks great, but not if the engine needs to be returned to the States for a repair.  One of my deciding factors will be if the warranty is voided if repairs are carried out by other than the engine builder.  

cheers,  

Ron  

  

--

Dick Sipp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: Engine prices

I could be wrong and have not checked in a while but I believe Van's engines are not "certified"ether at least in the sense you could not put one on a certified airplane.

  

 The primary difference in Van's engines and the Lycoming kit engines being built by the 5 authorized shops, one of which is Aerosport is that Van's is built by the factory and the others are assembled at the authorized assemble shops.  Only the 5 designated shops can do this, not a private party or another shop.

  

 I paid $31,500 base price for the 540 plus a few moods.  The price on the kit engines did go up substantially several weeks ago.

  

 Dick Sipp

 [quote]   ---

Dick Sipp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: Engine prices

Tim,



The "kit" engines from Lycoming go the authorized builders as a parts kit, 

so no tear down is required.

Each of the shops to the best of my knowlege can then apply any of their 

favorite practices like balancing, your choice of injection, ignition etc. 

I'm not sure if Lycoming has put any restrictions on the shops as far as 

limits on what they can change, compression?  I ordered mine with AFP fuel 

injection, and one Lightspeed ignition.



Dick Sipp

---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: Engine prices

The Lycomings as delivered by Van's could be put directly on any certified aircraft that has that engine on the type certificate. example is the Piper Comanche 260.

 [quote]   ---

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: Engine prices

Yeah, but that's probably a function of a couple things...variability in

the engine mount dimensions, and perhaps the fact that my sump may have

been of some older generation of slightly different dimensions.

I know they said that the new Lycomings don't have issues with the

mount, but so far I haven't really heard any evidence that there is

a highly significant difference between the "good" ones and

the "bad" ones.  I think many of them are too close, but many people

are just continuing on.  There is also a little variation depending

on what order you torque the mounts in, it seems.  My guess is that

I probably would not have had a big problem at least right away

if I had left it.  It's all a guess, because there just isn't enough

time experience in the fleet to know yet.  Just remember that when

it comes to the sump and mount, there are not many "knowns".  There

is the brand new lycoming way to go, and then "everything else",

because with any of the rebuilds you aren't guaranteed that you're

getting a sump of any particular year/model/size.  It's not an

"Aerosport" engine...it's a previously run Lycoming engine, rebuilt

by Aerosport.



As far as you being on the upside down part of the world, I agree

with you in that I'd either stick with a really good reputation'd

rebuilder on the right-side-up part of the globe, or get one closer

to home.  The kit is something you build, but since most people

don't build their engine, it would be nice to have it easily

supported from somewhere closer.  The companies' quality though

is still a big factor.  I've never heard anything bad about

Aerosport or Barrett, and that means something too.  I was sold

on Aerosport the first time I heard one (before I knew that's

what I was hearing).



I don't know what the deal is on warranties carried out by

3rd parties.....I guess I didn't check that out.  I figure

that once it runs, there's only so much I'd hold a company

accountable for anyway.  It is nice to know they stand behind

their stuff though.



At any rate, when it comes to the engine mount, I still say it's

a crapshoot and that no matter what the engine, there's going to

be a few builders affected.  Time will tell on that one, but I

sure think they should have changed the way they built them

when they saw the few instances of issues.  From the gaps they

told me they had with their test jig, it isn't like the

good clearance ones were a huge amount better.  But, some get

really close.   I also get curious as to how much of this stuff

could be effects of the mounting ears and other things like

sump gasket materials, and many more...I don't know that anyone

knows the answers.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

McGANN, Ron wrote:

[quote] Great post Tim - but you did have to get your engine mount modified if I 

 remember right .

 

 Being based in Australia, I'm not all that keen on having to return my 

 engine mount for modification.  What should I look for to avoid the 

 issues you had (problem with the oil pan if I recall)?  On the subject 

 of returns, a three year warranty period looks great, but not if the 

 engine needs to be returned to the States for a repair.  One of my 

 deciding factors will be if the warranty is voided if repairs are 

 carried out by other than the engine builder.

 

 cheers,

 Ron

 

 

 --

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: Engine prices

Yeah, I was mainly talking about the non-kit version of the

Lycomings that Van's was selling back when I ordered my

engine (about a year ago).  Now the whole market has changed.

I think the kit engine thing is a really big plus for the

current builders for the reasons you listed below, even if the

cost is higher now.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Richard Sipp wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Tim,

 

 The "kit" engines from Lycoming go the authorized builders as a parts 

 kit, so no tear down is required.

 Each of the shops to the best of my knowlege can then apply any of their 

 favorite practices like balancing, your choice of injection, ignition 

 etc. I'm not sure if Lycoming has put any restrictions on the shops as 

 far as limits on what they can change, compression?  I ordered mine with 

 AFP fuel injection, and one Lightspeed ignition.

 

 Dick Sipp

 

 

 ---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: Engine prices

  I did some fast comparison shopping between several of the big builders back when I heard about the price increase.  Basically I looked at Mattituck, Barrett, and Aerosport.  When you actually compared what each one did, they were all very, very close in price once you leveled the playing field.  I ended up choosing Barrett for a couple of reasons.  First he is only 300ish miles from me where Mattituck is considerably farther and Aerosport is in Canada.  I have directly heard of a couple builders having problems with Aerosport's rebuilt engines, one was rather serious and that builder ended up with a new kit built engine from them in exchange and for the price difference.  It seems they are not real good about maintaining a model number with its model specific parts as this appears to be the problem Tim also had.  I wasn't about to have a potential problem with an international company but I also have never heard of a situation where they didn't right a wrong.  Allen has a very good reputation and I also trust he will make good on any promise.



  With price out of the picture the single biggest thing for me was comfort factor and BPA won out in that arena.  Incidentally, my engine will be on display at Barrett's booth at Airventure this year if anyone wants to get an up close look at his work.



Michael Sausen

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage



--

weeav8ter(at)grandecom.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 4:05 am Post subject: Engine prices

I purchased a New engine from Aerosport, which uses, per my understanding, new certified parts from Lycoming. I was also told that if I buy a certified engine from Van's that once I mount it on an experimental plane it will no longer be considered certified. Don't know for a fact that is true but that's what I was told. 

  

 Wayne Edgerton #40336

  

 do not archive

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: Engine prices

Let’s not get that started again!  A certified engine is a certified engine.  The engine doesn’t know what kind of plane it’s in, and doesn’t care.  You could have a certified factory engine that was installed on a swamp boat and it’s still a certified engine, as long as no one has changed its parts.  Engines and props are certified on their own in their own right, and then also certified as a combination for a particular aircraft model.  But the base certification of an engine is only dependent on the engine itself.  

   

TDT  

40025  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Edgerton

 Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:04 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Engine prices  

  

     

I purchased a New engine from Aerosport, which uses, per my understanding, new certified parts from Lycoming. I was also told that if I buy a certified engine from Van's that once I mount it on an experimental plane it will no longer be considered certified. Don't know for a fact that is true but that's what I was told.   

    

   

    

Wayne Edgerton #40336

Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: Engine prices

   

   

Van’s is only authorized to sell as many engines as he has sold kits.  The engines are certified.  However, in order to pull them from an experimental and put it into a certified plane, one of two things would have to be done.  1) The engine would have to be stock configuration, absolutely no modifications, experimental processes or components (such as experimental ignition systems, Precision Silverhawk of AFP fuel system) and would have to be maintained as a certified engine (i.e. maintenance by a licensed A&P, all SBs and ADs in compliance) or 2) Overhauled before installation by a certified repair station to type certificate limits.    

     

[i]Rhonda[/i]  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

 Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:03 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Engine prices  

  

     

The Lycomings as delivered by Van's could be put directly on any certified aircraft that has that engine on the type certificate. example is the Piper Comanche 260.  

  [quote]    

---

Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: Engine prices

Ron:  

Let me clarify, the ceramic coated exhaust is not required with the BPE IO-540-X, it is merely an option.  The ceramic coating is designed to keep radiant heat out of the cowl (there has been significant discussion of this issue on the lists.)  We like the Forsling exhaust, because we have tested it on our dyno and found that it runs nice and gives a small hp boost on the engine we ran (a new IO-540-X with 9.5:1 compression and Barrett’s Cold Air Induction.)  You can use any exhaust you choose.  You would only need the modified cowl if you decided to run our Cold Air Induction, which is a performance upgrade.  It is my understanding that the modified cowl is scheduled to be priced very similarly to Van’s standard cowl.  The IO-540 without Cold Air does not require any modifications.  Hope this helps clarify.   

[i]Rhonda Barrett-Bewley[/i][i][/i]  

Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.  

2870-B N.   Sheridan Rd.  

Tulsa, OK  74115  

(918) 835-1089 phone  

(918) 835-1745 fax  

www.barrettprecisionengines.com   

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron

 Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:11 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Engine prices  

There's only ~$1K difference between the Vans and Aerosport engines, yet Vans is certified.  Why would anyone buy an experimental from Aero Sport??   What are the extra 'bangs' that you get for your Aero Sport 'bucks'??  

The high performance BPA engine looks like a great package, but throw in the required ceramic exhaust and a non standard cowl and it becomes an expensive proposition.  

-----Original Message----- 

 From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Deems Davis 

 Sent: Thursday, 11 May 2006 9:25 AM 

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 

 Subject: Re: Engine prices   

--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>   

Van's price is for a certified Lycoming. the Aero Sport and Mattituck 

 are experimantal  (i.e. the name plate on the engine is from the engine 

 builder vs Lycoming. They are built from kits that the engine builders 

 get from Lycoming which contain new parts.  There was a price increase 

 not too long ago and it has taken some time  for the builders to update 

 their web sites. I suspect that Mattitucks price is  now closer to 

 Aerosport, BPS, G&N etc.   

 Deems Davis # 406 

 Fuse 

 http://deemsrv10.com/   

McGANN, Ron wrote:   

 	  Quote: 	
		   G'day all, 

 > 

 > Time to spend some BIG bucks. 

 > 

 > Can anyone please explain why there is such a price differential 

 > between the Vans and Aerosport Power IO540s at ~$42K, versus 

 > Mattitucks TMXIO540 at $34K?  I am a 'queer trader' by profession 

 > (Electronic Systems) and this 'black hander' stuff is all voodoo to 

 > me.  I am totally ignorant on all engine related issues, so be gentle 

 > . . . 

 > 

 > thanks in advance, 

 > Ron 

 > #187 

 >   

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johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: Engine prices

After the first Conditional (annual) Inspection, done by a non A &P that could be true. After any needed repairs (beyond Part 43) done by the owner/ non A & P that might be true. Certificated Engines remain so when the maintenance actions they receive are compliant with Part 43, the TCDS and the data plate attached.  Being in a non certificated (VANS) aircraft does not invalidate the certification.  

   

Fly off hours are a whole different thing.  

   

Remember, the supply of D4A5s is dwindling at a rapid rate.  You only get ONE new one through VANS discount.  “Use the Force wisely Luke”.  That is the course that Randy Debauw went and still has both the factory new engine and prop options available.  Visit Dan Checkoway’s site and you will see he has flown half his engine life away after just a short period of time.  In a best case scenario, the engine casing can go through three lives (reassemblies) before being discarded.  That being conditional on no prop strikes, significant overheat, loss of moving parts or massive loss of oil pressure.  

   

John – KUAO  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Edgerton

 Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:04 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Engine prices  

  

     

I purchased a New engine from Aerosport, which uses, per my understanding, new certified parts from Lycoming. I was also told that if I buy a certified engine from Van's that once I mount it on an experimental plane it will no longer be considered certified. Don't know for a fact that is true but that's what I was told.   

    

   

    

Wayne Edgerton #40336  

    

   

    

do not archive

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