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Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published

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psm(at)att.net
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published

Hi Ron,



I don't understand your comment that installing the upgrade is your 

choice here.



The way I read the SAIB published by the FAA in November 2009 was if any 

pilot is caught flying a Zodiac XL without the upgrade installed they 

will have their license revoked.  The way they worded it was they have 

determined that the Zodiac XL without the upgrade installed is not 

airworthy and any pilot who flies a non-airworthy plane will lose their 

pilot's license.  This is what I called the "Nuclear Option" at the time.



Did I misunderstand something?



Paul



On 4/11/2011 6:10 PM, Ron Lendon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 That's all well and good but I must point out, the Airplane in question was built to different standards (lighter material) than the LSA versions.  Therefore postulating on these results is only academic opinion.



 Installing the upgrade is your choice here in the USA if your airplane is already flying. If you don't have the airworthiness certificate, you must, or you probably won't get one.



 These discussions can be misleading when apples and oranges are being compared.



 On a brighter note, making progress toward having a flyable XLB.



 --------

 Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI

 WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing

 Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder 

 http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon

 Corvair Engine Prints:

 http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336677#336677

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Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been publis

The way I understand it, it is the pilots option. It is a strong recommendation but not enforceable unless that particular airplane and pilot come under scrutiny of the FAA for some other reason.  So yes the threat is implied but it is still your free choice as I understand it. I am not a lawyer but I do know a few people who have exercised their freedom to choose in regards to this issue.

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_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been publis

Paul,



This is right from the FAA site:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Special Airworthiness Information Bulletins (SAIB)



A Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) is an information tool that alerts, educates, and makes recommendations to the aviation community. SAIBs contain non-regulatory information and guidance that does not meet the criteria for an Airworthiness Directive (AD). 	




Key words here are non-regulatory.



FYI

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published

Hi Ron,



I believe your analysis is exactly correct, but I think your "Strong 

recommendation" comment falls short of the mark.



I know from my conversations with the actual players at FAA that they 

believe the original (?) XL design falls short of the ASTM standard 

regarding structural strength and the upgraded design meets the 

standard.  All parties to this problem agree that all owners should 

install the upgrade.  That includes the FAA, NTSB, Zenith/Zenair, and to 

a certain extent several foreign government civil aviation authorities.



I know there are holdouts among Zodiac XL owners, but for the life of me 

I can't understand why.  All of the facts and authorities point to the 

simple fact that the upgrade is necessary to make these planes safe.  It 

is a big job to install the upgrade, and some people feel they can 

install an alternate design upgrade.  Those that think the original 

design was OK are simply in denial of reality.



Paul

On 4/11/2011 7:31 PM, Ron Lendon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The way I understand it, it is the pilots option. It is a strong recommendation but not enforceable unless that particular airplane and pilot come under scrutiny of the FAA for some other reason.  So yes the threat is implied but it is still your free choice as I understand it. I am not a lawyer but I do know a few people who have exercised their freedom to choose in regards to this issue.



 --------

 Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI

 WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing

 Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder 

 http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon

 Corvair Engine Prints:

 http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336686#336686

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published

Hi Ron,

The other side of that argument - "does not meet the criteria for an 

Airworthiness Directive (AD)" would apply to all experimental and LSA 

aircraft.  Only type certificated aircraft can be the object of an AD.

 From the bureaucratic point of view, the whole Zodiac XL issue falls 

into the cracks.  If it were just a kit plane the FAA would have 

probably ignored the whole thing.  The fact that people could buy 

factory built S-LSA versions led them to the point that they had to do 

something but the existing regulatory environment didn't really allow 

them to do much.  You see, it is the manufacturer that controls LSAs not 

the FAA.  When they issued the SAIB they said, in effect, that AMD and 

the FAA required people to install the change.  Since the kit version of 

the Zodiac is exactly the same as the S-LSA (if you don't count the 

difference between a factory built plane and one built buy the person 

who intends to fly it) the decisions made for the AMD version had to 

also apply to the kit plane, E-AB, version.  This just didn't work when 

you put all the rules and lack of rules together.  It was the first big 

test of the new LSA rules and a very sticky one from the FAA's 

perspective.  That, in my opinion, is why they used the "Nuclear Option" 

of declaring the XL un-airworthy and threatening to ground any pilot 

caught flying it.

If only the documents released by the FAA were easier to interpret we 

would all have the same understanding of the actual facts in this whole 

mess.  Alas, what we got was government speak and a need for advanced 

degrees in aeronautical engineering to get the actual message.

I know some people are holding on to their faith in Chris Heintz when he 

said there is nothing wrong with the XL design and continuing to fly the 

plane that the FAA has found un-airworthy.  I wish it were something 

that could be easily fixed (that is to get them to install the upgrade) 

but apparently it will take more deaths to get the real message across.

Paul

On 4/11/2011 7:40 PM, Ron Lendon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Paul,

 This is right from the FAA site:

> Special Airworthiness Information Bulletins (SAIB)

>

> A Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) is an information tool that alerts, educates, and makes recommendations to the aviation community. SAIBs contain non-regulatory information and guidance that does not meet the criteria for an Airworthiness Directive (AD).

 Key words here are non-regulatory.

 FYI

 --------

 Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI

 WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing

 Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder 

 http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon

 Corvair Engine Prints:

 http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336687#336687

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Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been publis

Paul,



That's the good thing about our country you are free to make your own decisions.  With that freedom also comes risk. 



I don't think we will see many more of these designs falling out of the sky. The ones that are flying without the upgrade are most likely well within the flight envelope now.  



There has been enough talk about the short comings of the design and not enough talk about the piloting skills.  This design flies very docile but you have to be very light on the controls. Even with the upgrade and control limit modifications, you must be light on the controls.  



Also it is a LSA, so bring your wind and gust factor minimums down to a lower value for the go/no go decision.  That's the type of conversations I think we should be having. Flying safe is not a function of the equipment (although it is a factor), thats the pilots responsibility.

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published

All good points, Ron.



I finally lost possession of a S-LSA I've had on a lease for nearly two 

years.  I used it to get my flying skills back up to speed after some 25 

years on the ground.  It took me something like 30 or 40 hours to get to 

the point where I could make predictable good landings.  I don't think 

there was ever a safety risk, but to do a good job took skills I just 

didn't develop flying heavier airplanes.



The new owner of the plane arrived here Friday night and on Saturday I 

tried to get him up to speed flying this plane.  It was his first time 

in an LSA, but he had nearly 1000 hours and thought it would be a simple 

transition.  I did my best (I'm not an instructor) and he felt confident 

enough to solo after about 3 hours observing me fly the plane and 

practicing his own flying.  I wasn't really comfortable with him flying 

it all the way to Ohio from Washington state with a stop for family 

visit in Utah, but it was  his plane and he was completely legal as far 

as I know.  He emailed updates to me and a bunch of other people about 

his trip.  On the second day he blew a tire landing at Ogden Utah.  This 

all just is a long way of agreeing with you that enhanced flying skill - 

especially the need to learn new tricks to fly very light planes - is 

something that just doesn't come easy.



I think it is a sad truth that the fact a person can build a very nice 

plane says nothing at all about his ability to fly it.  We see lots of 

accidents in the experimental community because of this simple truth.  I 

can't imagine there is much of any way to fix this.  The FAA is starting 

to concentrate on second owners of home built planes needing good 

transition training, but for the original owner it is all a mater of 

personal discipline.



I've never seen any numbers on demonstrated cross wind landings for the 

Zodiac XL.  Have you?  The Tecnam Echo I was flying has a high wing and 

demonstrated 15 knot crosswind, but I would certainly not want to try 

that trick.  The Zodiac might be a little better because of the low wing.



Paul.



On 4/12/2011 6:42 PM, Ron Lendon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Paul,



 That's the good thing about our country you are free to make your own decisions.  With that freedom also comes risk.



 I don't think we will see many more of these designs falling out of the sky. The ones that are flying without the upgrade are most likely well within the flight envelope now.



 There has been enough talk about the short comings of the design and not enough talk about the piloting skills.  This design flies very docile but you have to be very light on the controls. Even with the upgrade and control limit modifications, you must be light on the controls.



 Also it is a LSA, so bring your wind and gust factor minimums down to a lower value for the go/no go decision.  That's the type of conversations I think we should be having. Flying safe is not a function of the equipment (although it is a factor), thats the pilots responsibility.



 --------

 Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI

 WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing

 Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder 

 http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon

 Corvair Engine Prints:

 http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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