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Oil shut off valve.

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wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:01 pm Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

G’Day,

 

Looking at the micro switch on the Kimball oil shut off valve would indicate that the starter button circuit cannot be wired thru the micro switch as the current rating seems to be too low.

Can anyone provide a wiring diagram to incorporate the shut off valve and micro switch for a 52 and 18T?

 

Thanks and cheers, 

Chris.

  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:53 am Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

Chris, 



Use a relay.  



Mark

--

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

G'Day Mark,



Thanks for that.

Yeah, I have already ordered 3 continuous rated 24Volt relays for My 18T

another 18T and a 52.

I thought that there may be a way to direct the starter circuit thru the

micro switch in a simple manner.

I could not find a way as I do not think that the current rating for the

micro switch would handle the load.

Thanks and cheers,

Chris.



--

N13472(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

I have been using a micro-switch for 8 plus years on a CJ. No problems remember that you are not opening or closing 

This switch under load.

 

Tom Elliott

CJ-6A NX63727

777 Quartz Ave

PMB 7004

Sandy Valley NV

89019

Cell 702-595-2680

 

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wise

Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 4:56 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Oil shut off valve.

 

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Chris Wise" <wise(at)txc.net.au (wise(at)txc.net.au)>



G'Day Mark,



Thanks for that.

Yeah, I have already ordered 3 continuous rated 24Volt relays for My 18T

another 18T and a 52.

I thought that there may be a way to direct the starter circuit thru the

micro switch in a simple manner.

I could not find a way as I do not think that the current rating for the

micro switch would handle the load.

Thanks and cheers,

Chris.



--

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

Yeah, despite the name "micro" those switched are often used to switch 110 or 220 AC at several amps. Since a relay would add a failure mode, I wouldn't add one unless the contact rating won't allow for it with some margin.

On Apr 15, 2011, at 7:30 PM, Tom Elliott wrote:

[quote]I have been using a micro-switch for 8 plus years on a CJ. No problems remember that you are not opening or closing

This switch under load.

 

Tom Elliott

CJ-6A NX63727

777 Quartz Ave

PMB 7004

Sandy Valley NV

89019

Cell 702-595-2680

 

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wise

Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 4:56 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: RE: Oil shut off valve.

 



--> Yak-List message posted by: "Chris Wise" <wise(at)txc.net.au (wise(at)txc.net.au)>



G'Day Mark,



Thanks for that.

Yeah, I have already ordered 3 continuous rated 24Volt relays for My 18T

another 18T and a 52.

I thought that there may be a way to direct the starter circuit thru the

micro switch in a simple manner.

I could not find a way as I do not think that the current rating for the

micro switch would handle the load.

Thanks and cheers,

Chris.



--

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

Thanks Tom.

I agree with opening and closing not under load.

Cliff Coy has replied and kindly advised that Omron make the same Micro Switch in 15 Amp.

So for peace of mind I shall replace the micro with a 15 Amper and then wire as you all do.

 

Thanks and cheers,

Chris.

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Elliott

Sent: Saturday, 16 April 2011 9:00 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Oil shut off valve.

 

I have been using a micro-switch for 8 plus years on a CJ. No problems remember that you are not opening or closing 

This switch under load.

 

Tom Elliott

CJ-6A NX63727

777 Quartz Ave

PMB 7004

Sandy Valley NV

89019

Cell 702-595-2680

 

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wise

Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 4:56 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Oil shut off valve.

 

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Chris Wise" <wise(at)txc.net.au (wise(at)txc.net.au)>



G'Day Mark,



Thanks for that.

Yeah, I have already ordered 3 continuous rated 24Volt relays for My 18T

another 18T and a 52.

I thought that there may be a way to direct the starter circuit thru the

micro switch in a simple manner.

I could not find a way as I do not think that the current rating for the

micro switch would handle the load.

Thanks and cheers,

Chris.



--

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

Tom, 

I am going with a 15 Amp Micro.

Also remember that if making and breaking a DC load, requires a switch with heavier contacts.

As you say, there is no switching load in this case.

 

Cheers,

Chris.

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Wobschall

Sent: Saturday, 16 April 2011 9:20 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Oil shut off valve.

 

Yeah, despite the name "micro" those switched are often used to switch 110 or 220 AC at several amps. Since a relay would add a failure mode, I wouldn't add one unless the contact rating won't allow for it with some margin.

 



 

On Apr 15, 2011, at 7:30 PM, Tom Elliott wrote:





I have been using a micro-switch for 8 plus years on a CJ. No problems remember that you are not opening or closing



This switch under load.



 



Tom Elliott

CJ-6A NX63727

777 Quartz Ave

PMB 7004

Sandy Valley NV

89019

Cell 702-595-2680



 



 



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wise

Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 4:56 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: RE: Oil shut off valve.



 



--> Yak-List message posted by: "Chris Wise" <wise(at)txc.net.au (wise(at)txc.net.au)>



G'Day Mark,



Thanks for that.

Yeah, I have already ordered 3 continuous rated 24Volt relays for My 18T

another 18T and a 52.

I thought that there may be a way to direct the starter circuit thru the

micro switch in a simple manner.

I could not find a way as I do not think that the current rating for the

micro switch would handle the load.

Thanks and cheers,

Chris.



--

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:05 pm Post subject: Oil Shut Off Valve.

G’Day All,

 

Thanks for the replies re the setting up of the ignition wiring to the micro switch on the oil shut off valve.

I had ordered a 24 Volt continues rated solenoid as I did not think that the switch had heavy enough contacts as it is a D.C. load that it had to handle.

Conclusion.

Keep it as simple as possible and route the wiring from the ignition C/B (Switch) thru the Micro Switch located on the oil shut off valve. No solenoid.

Agreed that there is no switching load on the micro switch and Cliff Coy has forwarded the details of where to purchase a micro switch with a 15 amp rating.

 

Problem solved and thanks.

 

Cheers,

Chris.

 

  [quote][b]

kjkimball(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:47 am Post subject: Oil Shut Off Valve.

The ignition does not pass thru the switch. Only the small power to open the airstart valve. 



Kevin

Sent from my iPad



On Apr 15, 2011, at 10:02 PM, "Chris Wise" <wise(at)txc.net.au> wrote:



[quote] G’Day All,

 

  

 

 Thanks for the replies re the setting up of the ignition wiring to the micro switch on the oil shut off valve.

 

 I had ordered a 24 Volt continues rated solenoid as I did not think that the switch had heavy enough contacts as it is a D.C. load that it had to handle.

 

 Conclusion.

 

 Keep it as simple as possible and route the wiring from the ignition C/B (Switch) thru the Micro Switch located on the oil shut off valve. No solenoid

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: Oil Shut Off Valve.

G’Day Kevin,

 

That sorta makes a difference to ones thinking.

Whilst I have never traced the circuit, I simply assumed  ( make a ASS of U and ME ) that as the wire from the C.B. was not all that a small diam wire, that there would be a reasonable load.

 

Thanks for that and cheers,

Chris.

 

 

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] ([email][mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com][/email]) On Behalf Of Kjk Aol

Sent: Sunday, 17 April 2011 2:14 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Oil Shut Off Valve.

 

The ignition does not pass thru the switch. Only the small power to open the airstart valve. 



Kevin

Sent from my iPad



On Apr 15, 2011, at 10:02 PM, "Chris Wise" <wise(at)txc.net.au (wise(at)txc.net.au)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

G’Day All,

 

Thanks for the replies re the setting up of the ignition wiring to the micro switch on the oil shut off valve.

I had ordered a 24 Volt continues rated solenoid as I did not think that the switch had heavy enough contacts as it is a D.C. load that it had to handle.

Conclusion.

Keep it as simple as possible and route the wiring from the ignition C/B (Switch) thru the Micro Switch located on the oil shut off valve. No solenoid.

Agreed that there is no switching load on the micro switch and Cliff Coy has forwarded the details of where to purchase a micro switch with a 15 amp rating.

 

Problem solved and thanks.

 

Cheers,

Chris.

 

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  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

Well, I was reading all the responses and pretty much figured this was a

dead issue, but then I read a little more and decided to comment.  



Relays are by and large VERY reliable.  Especially if you take the time

to purchase a good one that is milspec rated and sealed.   These type of

relays have been known to operate for 50 years without failing.  



If a person was really concerned about this, they would stick an ammeter

in line with the wire going to the starting solenoid and see exactly

what current it draws.    



In any case, SWITCHES on the other hand, especially "micro-switches"

fail ALL the time.  The mechanical loads and stresses on a switch are

much more unpredictable and as such... they fail.   



If a control micro-switch is too small, the normal design premise is to

then use a relay that is rated at least twice load factor.   Using the

premise that a relay just adds "one more thing to go wrong" may sound

logical, but the fact is that reality does not support that viewpoint

when it comes to relays.  When using a small micro-switch and a relay,

wiring from the control micro-switch can be very small ... 22 gage or

so... and it then runs to a logical place where a relay would be

located... and with YAK aircraft, that would be in the "relay box" where

all the OTHER relays are located for this aircraft.  From there to the

Air-Starting Solenoid is a very short run.  So with a relay in the relay

box, the install is dead simple.  



The cockpit switch right now goes to the Air Start Solenoid.  That wire

will just now be taken off the air start solenoid and routed to the

relay normally COMMON contact.  The NORMALLY CLOSED CONTACT on the relay

will have a wire hooked to it that runs BACK into the aircraft control

panel and connects to any BIG RED LIGHT that you can put in there.    



The NORMALLY OPEN contact on the relay will go back to the air start

solenoid.   



The same wire from the start push-button will ALSO connect to one side

of the RELAY COIL.  



The OTHER side of the RELAY COIL will run to the new micro-switch on the

new OIL VALVE.  This switch should CLOSE when the valve is OPEN, thus

completing the circuit and ENERGIZING the relay when you OPEN the valve.

How does it work? 



When you get in the aircraft and attempt to start the thing with the oil

valve closed, the start solenoid will not operate and instead a BIG RED

LIGHT will come on any time you push the start button.  



When you OPEN the oil valve, the engine will start normally and the red

light will be disabled.  



Lastly, you put a switch mounted to the exterior of the relay

compartment that has guard over it.  When you OPEN the guard and FLIP

the switch up, you BY-PASS the safety interlock system and the aircraft

reverts to normal starting operation.  This allows you to start if

anything like the control switch quits.  



Relays are good things.  When designing aircraft circuits with new

ideas, their use should be encouraged and not the other way around.  The

important thing is USING THE RIGHT ONE.  



Mark Bitterlich 

Naval Air Technical Data & Engineering Service Command 

EA-6B Prowler Electronic Warfare Weapons System Integrator

MCAS Cherry Point, N.C.  



 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:34 am Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

Actually, the micro-switch alone PROBABLY would have worked.  I doubt

the solenoid relay coil draws more than about 500 mils or so.  The way

that valve is designed, it uses the actual air pressure itself to make

it work.  The solenoid basically just opens a port which in turn opens

the main valve. 



As I mentioned, I would use a small relay, because I also want a light

in the cockpit, and a relay expands the design capability tremendously.

Being a person that can make mistakes.... I want the best warning system

possible to let me know I am attempting to start an aircraft with the

oil supply turned OFF.  



Mark

--

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:34 pm Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

G'Day Mark,



A well posted article. I also figured it to be a dead issue, but sound

discussion is always a good thing.

Background. I have been involved with electrics all my working life and

occasionally still am.

I have designed and supervised the switch boards for automated production

lines whereby all interlocked and so on using contactors/relays so that if

something jammed or went wrong the whole line stopped and had to be

restarted in sequence every time.

I was "the man" in charge of the winders on some gold mines in South Africa,

both man hoists and the automated ore hoists.

So relays are no strangers to me.



There is no doubt at all that what you describe is far more fail safe than

simply wiring thru the micro switch. Load wise.

The obvious 1st step is to measure the Amps carried by the wire from the

ignition circuit breaker when the start button is engaged.



Now it is obvious that there are many shut off valve installations that have

the ignition wire routed thru the micro switch which to date have not had

any hang-ups with the system.

Remember that Tom Elliot posted the article about his CJ operating for many

years with this system and he rightfully points out that there is no

switching load.

If there was a switching load, direct current at that, the arc across such a

low amp rated micro switch would have a internal haemorrhage in no time at

all.



So I think that the to operate the system as is seems to be reliable so far,

but for my peace of mind I am going to replace the Micro Switch with a 15A

switch.

Bear in mind that my original idea was to use a aircraft continues rated

solenoid valve as you have pointed out. I have in fact ordered and paid for

2. 

So valve closed, no start circuit and red light on, valve open, start

circuit and green light on.



Mark, I think that we are very fortunate to have this site whereby so much

dammed good input and feedback exists.



Cheers,

Chris. 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:00 am Post subject: Oil shut off valve.

Of course Chris.  I think there is an EXTREMELY high probability that

your design will work perfectly... pretty much for the life of the

aircraft.  The current draw for the starting solenoid is minimal.  Your

design is way over-kill, which is a good thing.  



I do like warning lights though.... a lot. 



Understood on your experience(s).  Pretty darn impressive!  



Thanks for the kind words.  My posting was primarily intended to dispel

any bad feelings about "relays" in general.  Obviously you did not need

the advice!  But possibly others might... which is why I pounded on the

keyboard for awhile.  



Best regards, and SMART MOVE PUTTING IN THE VALVE IN THE FIRST PLACE!  



I've been doing some research on M-14 engine damage.. the kind that

bites you in the rear "down the road".  In my research to date, the

biggest snake in the grass is a hydraulic lock, and your install will go

a long way towards eliminating that with this engine. 



Mark

--

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