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Understanding the Carbmate

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madriver42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:04 am Post subject: Understanding the Carbmate

Tom,

  

 Thanks for your reply.  I understand the relationship of throttle to vacuum - But still am confused as to which carb I should adjust AND when the LED is skewed left of right does this mean higher or lower vacuum ON WHICH SIDE.  I've decided to use the right Carb as the Master as the cable run is very short and probably less chance of error.  OR question to those who are running a Rotax 912ULS am I again being anal about adjusting when only one led out???

   

 Phil

  [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:40 am Post subject: Re: Understanding the Carbmate

 	  madriver42(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Tom,

 ï¿½

 Thanks for your reply.ï¿½ I understand the relationship of throttle to vacuum - But still am confused as to which carb I should adjust AND when the LED is skewed left of right does this mean higher or lower vacuum ON WHICH SIDE.ï¿½ I've decided to use the right Carb as the Master as the cable run is very short and probably less chance of error.ï¿½ OR question to those who are running a Rotax 912ULS amï¿½I again being anal about adjusting when only one led out???

  ï¿½

 Phil

	




One LED off is well within a decent balance. It'll be easily taken up by the crossover tube when you reconnect it anyway. So you're in good shape at that point as long as it doesn't move off to one side or the other appreciably at different throttle settings. 



IIRC, the relationship I ended up with is to throttle back the carb the LED points to as I'm holding it in the seat of the plane (engine behind me, pusher config). If that's not your setup, start by adjusting only one of the carbs to see which way the LED moves. Memorize that adjustment direction and the direction the LED moves (or write it on a piece of paper). Then go from there....



PS: if it's already pegged to one side, you can fairly easily tell if you're still going in the wrong direction adjustment-wise by simply listening to the engine. The further unbalanced the carbs are, the harder it runs and sputters. So if that gets worse, go back in the other direction or adjust the other carb, etc...

LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Understanding the Carbmate

Pneumatic Carb Balance tips,



First your throttle lever in the cockpit should have a mechanical stop on it of some kind so when your throttle lever in the cockpit is all the way back at idle the carb idle stop screw hits it's stop at the same time. This is the most ideal setup. If you can pull the cockpit lever back any more then you stand a very good chance at bending the idle stop plates on the carbs.



You should have the plane wheel chocked along with the parking brake set.

If you have to turn your engine on and off because of its configuration then one person is ok, but 2 still make life easier. If you do your adjustments with it running 2 people are a must for safety. Making adjustments while it is running makes life easier, but of course carries more risk of injury so absolutely take all precautions. I always wear hearing, eye protection (goggles) and never have loose clothing flapping around.



With the Carbmate or Syncromate you can move the throttle lever on the carb while it is running to watch which way the light moves and just take note as to how much before shutting off the engine to make your adjustment. Most adjustments will be small.



The next big thing I have heard recently is syncing carbs down at 2000 - 2500 rpm for the high rpm adjustment. This is too low and too close to idle. I never sync a set of carbs less than 3500 and then check them up to 4000 rpm. If you set your carb sync up at 2500 rpm I guarantee that at 3500-4000 rpm they will not be synced. You fly closer to the 3500-4000 rpm and only taxi at 2000-2500 rpm. Your crossover tube can correct up to a certain point, but after that they will not be synced if you allowed them to be too far out from each other. I can usually feel carbs out of balance between 4200-4800 rpm in flight on many planes (not all). Learn your plane and its feel at different rpms. Put your hand on the frame when you fly and listen to it, get a feel for the way it vibrates and moves. Then when things aren't right you will know.  As the rpms go higher than 4800 the frequency of the vibration becomes too fine and you may not feel it any more.  

 

Knowing which carb to change can be a challenge for some.

At idle it is easy. If you are shooting for a final idle rpm of 1750-1800 then look at your tach. If you are idling at 2000 rpm then adjust the carb with the lowest number on the gauges because it is getting more fuel and controlling the rpm more. As you bring down this vacuum to the higher number the other will change slightly too. If you are only getting 1650 rpm and want to raise the rpm then adjust the carb with the highest number so it gets more fuel and the gauge number becomes lower.



The higher the vacuum number on one carb means it is getting less fuel than the carb with the lower number.



This is the only bad thing about Carbmate and Syncromate as you can't tell which carb to go after and need to wiggle the carb arms to see which one you want to adjust.  The ideal electronic balancer would have a set of gauges in line so you could look at the gauge to see which carb to adjust then use the electronic balancer lights to make it perfect.



As far as adjusting the high rpm for sync and knowing which carb to adjust, I usually will take a look at the bowden cable screws and see how much adjustment each has left. I try to adjust the lower number carb getting more fuel to the higher number carb getting less fuel. Sometimes there is not enough adjustment left to pull the carb arm back any farther on the one getting more fuel. So you have to make a decision here. If you only need a little adjustment I may go ahead and adjust the higher vacuum carb to the lower vacuum carb if it is only a slight move. If it needs a fair amount then I will adjust the length of the cable on the one that is pulled back the farthest (getting more fuel, less vacuum)  shortening the cable by 1/16th".



As far as hooking up your gauge or Carbmate lines there are a couple different ways. For me the easiest and quickest is to pull off the left side crossover tube on top of the manifold. I put one, smooth, end male fitting in the rubber tube and I have a female tube that slips over the fitting on top of the manifold. I do have a screw clamp to snug down on each to prevent any air leaks. No clamping lines, taking out screws, just no muss or fuss and the carbs are now separated. Carb balance on the normal plane takes me about 15-25 min. I have had a couple up around 45 minutes and 1-2 that took an hour+, but that was a long time ago. Learning when to quit messing with the carbs and make a cable adjustment right up front can save you 30-40 minutes of time. 



The first few carb syncs take a little time and has a learning curve, but after a few they get easier. Carbs will be out of balance by every 100 hour inspection. Guaranteed. Cables relax, stretch, pulleys wear, parts in the carb wear, ect...



BALANCE those carbs and don't let anyone talk you out of it and tell you it isn't needed. That's as they say is "Hogwash". Think of your engine as a right engine (cyl 1&3) and a left engine (cyl. 2&4). If one side is getting a little more fuel than the other it may be trying to run at 5100 while the other side is trying to run at 5000 (just an example). The cross over can only do so much. Do it right and sync those carbs. It's only a $20K engine so why screw it up or shorten its life.



I hope this helps a few.



If you have any questions you can call me.



p.s.

You should always check the carb bowls for leaks and fuel dribble. If you have fuel stains on the sides of the bowls or fuel stains in the drip trays get those gaskets replaced. They are about $12 each. It only takes a few minutes. If you have carbs getting up in age i.e. 5+ years or a lot of hours then think about getting them rebuilt. They do wear internally and "O" rings do split. If you have no one to rebuild them for you then you can send them to me. I charge $60 plus parts. I get them from all over the country and have a one day turn around.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

kgderosier(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:12 pm Post subject: Understanding the Carbmate

Isn't the idea of syncing up mean to match one to the other???Â  Wouldn't you just adjust 1 carb to sync to the other??!!!

 Â 

 Gale D.

 RANS S6S

 On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 8:40 AM, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

 

[quote="madriver42(at)gmail.com"]Tom,

Â ï¿½

Â Thanks for your reply.ï¿½ I understand the relationship of throttle to vacuum - But still am confused as to which carb I should adjust AND when the LED is skewed left of right does this mean higher or lower vacuum ON WHICH SIDE.ï¿½ I've decided to use the right Carb as the Master as the cable run is very short and probably less chance of error.ï¿½ OR question to those who are running a Rotax 912ULS amï¿½I again being anal about adjusting when only one led out???

 Â ï¿½

Â Phil



 	  Quote: 	
		   [b]


	




One LED off is well within a decent balance. It'll be easily taken up by the crossover tube when you reconnect it anyway. So you're in good shape at that point as long as it doesn't move off to one side or the other appreciably at different throttle settings.

 

IIRC, the relationship I ended up with is to throttle back the carb the LED points to as I'm holding it in the seat of the plane (engine behind me, pusher config). If that's not your setup, start by adjusting only one of the carbs to see which way the LED moves. Memorize that adjustment direction and the direction the LED moves (or write it on a piece of paper). Then go from there....

 

LS



--------

LS

Titan II SS





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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336909#336909

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-- 

Gale Derosier

  [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding the Carbmate

Hi Gale,

It is to make the two carbs equal.

If it were only that easy. Once in a while it is that easy and other times it takes a while trying to dial one or both in. Sometimes you have to make a big adjustment and you run out of idle stop screw or a cable is too long or too short and they need adjustment. It all depends if you are having a lucky day and how well a person maintains their engine.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: Understanding the Carbmate

Phil,



I thought your question pertained to the relationship between vacuum gauge reading and throttle position.  Sorry I can't help on the carbmate lights because I don't know what the lights on a carbmate do/mean. 

  



Thom in Buffalo

   [quote][b]

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Understanding the Carbmate

 	  kgderosier(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Isn't the idea of syncing up mean to match one to the other???Â  Wouldn't you just adjust 1 carb to sync to the other??!!!

 Â 

 Gale D.

 RANS S6S

	




Pretty much what Roger said. Yes the goal is to balance the throttling between the two carbs, but actually getting there can be quite involved. If you only adjust one you may or may not end up where you want - they may be balanced, but both are too far open or closed for an acceptable idle speed or the throttles don't open all the way or they may try to open too far and pull against the stops, etc.....



To be honest, the way I did mine when I had them overhauled a while back:

- reattach to the bails by eye. Full throttle looks even, idle looks even, back out the idle screws so they don't touch the arms.

- attach carbmate

- start the sucker up 

- see where Im at and go from there...



 



That was literally easier than doing all the measuring and fiddling before hand with the feeler guage, etc. At first startup, sure enough it was pegged with the LED one one side. A couple adjustments later on one carb I had figured out which direction I needed to go to achieve a balance. Then, once they were balanced, I had to adjust both to get the idle speed where it was supposed to be. That done, I adjusted the idle screws to just touch the arms at idle. Recheck in the plane, boom, I was done. 



Took about an hour and it ended up virtually perfect.



So to me, that's the easiest way. Just stick em on there, set roughly equal by eye, attach the carbmate and fire that baby up. You have to figure out the direction and then adjust for correct idle anyway so that's the easiest method in the end....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Understanding the Carbmate

[quote="lucien"] 	  kgderosier(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Isn't the idea of syncing up mean to match one to the other???Â  Wouldn't you just adjust 1 carb to sync to the other??!!!

 Â 

 Gale D.

 RANS S6S

	




Pretty much what Roger said. Yes the goal is to balance the throttling between the two carbs, but actually getting there can be quite involved. If you only adjust one you may or may not end up where you want - they may be balanced, but both are too far open or closed for an acceptable idle speed or the throttles don't open all the way or they may try to open too far and pull against the stops, etc.....



To be honest, the way I did mine when I had them overhauled a while back:

- reattach to the bails by eye. Full throttle looks even, idle looks even, back out the idle screws so they don't touch the arms.

- attach carbmate

- start the sucker up 

- see where Im at and go from there...



 



That was literally easier than doing all the measuring and fiddling before hand with the feeler guage, etc. At first startup, sure enough it was pegged with the LED one one side and engine was pretty rough. A couple adjustments later on one carb I had figured out which direction I needed to go to achieve a balance. Then, once they were balanced, I had to adjust both to get the idle speed where it was supposed to be. That done, I adjusted the idle screws to just touch the arms at idle. Recheck in the plane, boom, I was done. 



Took about an hour and it ended up virtually perfect.



So to me, that's the easiest way. Just stick em on there, set roughly equal by eye (that gets you close enough for the engine to run acceptably and not do any damage), attach the carbmate and fire that baby up. You have to figure out the direction and then adjust for correct idle anyway so that's the easiest method in the end....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Richard Wheelwright

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Understanding the Carbmate

I'm balancing the 912uls and my engine has the M6 ports on the top of the manifold to fix in a nipple to which the carbmate is connected. Should the balance tube be removed and sealed for balancing or left balancing??? 



Thank you

_________________
Richard Wheelwright
G-IRPW
First Flight 24th July 2013

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:47 am Post subject: Understanding the Carbmate

Richard,



If you use the ports you can just clamp the soft portion of the balance tube.



Go to rotax-owner.com & check out their video on carb balance with the Carbmate.  It's excellent.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger



Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 7, 2013, at 13:11, Richard Wheelwright <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:






I'm balancing the 912uls and my engine has the M6 ports on the top of the manifold to fix in a nipple to which the carbmate is connected. Should the balance tube be removed and sealed for balancing or left balancing??? 



Thank you



--------

Richard Wheelwright

G-IRPW

90% finished with that 90% to Finish





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395842#395842

Richard Wheelwright

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:47 pm Post subject: Understanding the Carbmate

Bob

   Thank you for the Quick reply. I can only find the free video on the cabmate, is their another video with more details? if so, do you have the link.

  

 Thank you

 

  

 ====================



 Richard Wheelwright

====================

 



    

From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>

To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com> 

Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013, 19:47

Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Understanding the Carbmate

--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)>



Richard,



If you use the ports you can just clamp the soft portion of the balance tube.



Go to rotax-owner.com & check out their video on carb balance with the Carbmate.  It's excellent.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger



Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 7, 2013, at 13:11, Richard Wheelwright <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:



--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Richard Wheelwright" <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)>



I'm balancing the 912uls and my engine has the M6 ports on the top of the manifold to fix in a nipple to which the carbmate is connected. Should the balance tube be removed and sealed for balancing or left balancing??? 



Thank you



--------

Richard Wheelwright

G-IRPW

90% finished with that 90% to Finish





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395842#395842http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matronics.nbsp;                      -Matt Drals.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution</=============

 [quote][b]

_________________
Richard Wheelwright
G-IRPW
First Flight 24th July 2013

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:40 pm Post subject: Understanding the Carbmate

Richard,



No, that's the only video on the Carbmate.  If you have a membership, there's a detailed carb balance series of 4 videos.  Between them and the Carbmate video you'd have all you need.  I use the Carbmate to balance my carbs and I find it works very well.  Much easier to use than the gages.  



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



 

 

On Mar 7, 2013, at 2:45 PM, Richard Wheelwright <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:

Bob

   Thank you for the Quick reply. I can only find the free video on the cabmate, is their another video with more details? if so, do you have the link.

  

 Thank you

 

  

 ====================



 Richard Wheelwright

====================

 



    

From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)>

To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)> 

Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013, 19:47

Subject: Re: Re: Understanding the Carbmate

--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)>



Richard,



If you use the ports you can just clamp the soft portion of the balance tube.



Go to rotax-owner.com & check out their video on carb balance with the Carbmate.  It's excellent.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger



Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 7, 2013, at 13:11, Richard Wheelwright <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:



--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Richard Wheelwright" <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)>



I'm balancing the 912uls and my engine has the M6 ports on the top of the manifold to fix in a nipple to which the carbmate is connected. Should the balance tube be removed and sealed for balancing or left balancing??? 



Thank you



--------

Richard Wheelwright

G-IRPW

90% finished with that 90% to Finish





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395842#395842http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matronics.nbsp;                      -Matt Drals.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



 [quote]



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href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

Richard Wheelwright

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:51 pm Post subject: Understanding the Carbmate

Bob,

   Thank you. I have it now. Very Helpful



 

====================



Richard Wheelwright

====================

      

  From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Friday, 8 March 2013, 0:40

 Subject: Re: Re: Understanding the Carbmate

  

 

Richard,



No, that's the only video on the Carbmate.  If you have a membership, there's a detailed carb balance series of 4 videos.  Between them and the Carbmate video you'd have all you need.  I use the Carbmate to balance my carbs and I find it works very well.  Much easier to use than the gages.   



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



 

 

On Mar 7, 2013, at 2:45 PM, Richard Wheelwright <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:

Bob

   Thank you for the Quick reply. I can only find the free video on the cabmate, is their another video with more details? if so, do you have the link.

  

 Thank you

 

  

 ====================



 Richard Wheelwright

====================

 



    

From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)>

To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)> 

Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013, 19:47

Subject: Re:  Re: Understanding the Carbmate

--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)>



Richard,



If you use the ports you can just clamp the soft portion of the balance tube.



Go to rotax-owner.com & check out their video on carb balance with the Carbmate.  It's excellent.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger



Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 7, 2013, at 13:11, Richard Wheelwright <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:



--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Richard Wheelwright" <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)>



I'm balancing the 912uls and my engine has the M6 ports on the top of the manifold to fix in a nipple to which the carbmate is connected. Should the balance tube be removed and sealed for balancing or left balancing??? 



Thank  you



--------

Richard Wheelwright

G-IRPW

90% finished with that 90% to Finish





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395842#395842http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matronics.nbsp/;                      -Matt Drals.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



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[b]

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Richard Wheelwright
G-IRPW
First Flight 24th July 2013

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