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tc1234c(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:56 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this 

point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending 

the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends.  Without 

opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.  

Here are my observations:



a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.

b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.

c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this 

particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal 

when I taxied out and on the take off.

d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I 

still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane 

stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.

e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked 

quickly and put it on the ground soon.

f.  After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small 

fire but limited to inside the tunnel.

g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool 

boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B 

requirement).

h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at 

around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up 

and I had a three point.

i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and 

just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.

Some facts:



a. There is no modification on my fuel system.

b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is 

the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the 

opening.

c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I 

do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.

d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire 

department probably caused more damage than the fire.

I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my 

leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to 

death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly 

the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on 

there was no fear or regret.  After I called 911 and my insurance agent 

I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative thought 

was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I don't 

want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what 

happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I 

found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this problem.



Ted

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:02 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

Ted



Thank you for your candour and willingness to share whatever can be learned

from your accident. Everyone one the list is relieved that you came out okay

on this.



Regards



Les



--

amekler

Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Posts: 164

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:03 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

Ted, 

Thank you for the summary. I think you did a great job getting the plane on the ground without personal injury.Your story makes me want to get a smoke hood for my flying. 

Regards, 

Alan

  

  

  On Thu 04/28/11 6:53 AM , Ted Chang <tc1234c(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:

  

   [quote]  

  I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this 

  point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending 

  the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without 

  opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened. 

  Here are my observations:

  

  a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.

  b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.

  c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this 

  particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal 

  when I taxied out and on the take off.

  d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I 

  still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane 

  stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.

  e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked 

  quickly and put it on the ground soon.

  f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small 

  fire but limited to inside the tunnel.

  g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool 

  boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B 

  requirement).

  h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at 

  around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up 

  and I had a three point.

  i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and 

  just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.

  

  

  Some facts:

  

  a. There is no modification on my fuel system.

  b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is 

  the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the 

  opening.

  c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I 

  do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.

  d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire 

  department probably caused more damage than the fire.

  

  

  I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my 

  leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to 

  death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly 

  the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on 

  there was no fear or regret. After I called 911 and my insurance agent 

  I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative thought 

  was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I don't 

  want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what 

  happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I 

  found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this problem.

  

  

  

  Ted

  

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  [b]

amekler

Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Posts: 164

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

Ted and RV-10, 

Just found this link to smoke evac hoods. 

http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/cockpit_smoke_hoods_197712-1.html 

Regards, 

Alan Mekler 

n668g

  

  

  On Thu 04/28/11 6:53 AM , Ted Chang <tc1234c(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:

  

   [quote]  

  I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this 

  point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending 

  the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without 

  opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened. 

  Here are my observations:

  

  a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.

  b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.

  c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this 

  particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal 

  when I taxied out and on the take off.

  d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I 

  still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane 

  stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.

  e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked 

  quickly and put it on the ground soon.

  f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small 

  fire but limited to inside the tunnel.

  g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool 

  boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B 

  requirement).

  h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at 

  around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up 

  and I had a three point.

  i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and 

  just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.

  

  

  Some facts:

  

  a. There is no modification on my fuel system.

  b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is 

  the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the 

  opening.

  c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I 

  do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.

  d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire 

  department probably caused more damage than the fire.

  

  

  I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my 

  leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to 

  death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly 

  the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on 

  there was no fear or regret. After I called 911 and my insurance agent 

  I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative thought 

  was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I don't 

  want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what 

  happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I 

  found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this problem.

  

  

  

  Ted

  

  ===========

        tp%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FRV10-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

   ===========

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   ===========

     tp%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

  ===========

  

  

  

  

  [b]

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Fire and off field landing

Ted,



Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts!



The community will be better from learning from your experience.



If you need any help, let me know.  I'm only a couple hours away.

bob

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

jfrjr(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:25 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

You are a good man Ted Chang--glad you are still with us.  Jay Rowe #301

---- Ted Chang <tc1234c(at)roadrunner.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this 

 point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending 

 the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends.  Without 

 opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.  

 Here are my observations:

 

 a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.

 b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.

 c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this 

 particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal 

 when I taxied out and on the take off.

 d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I 

 still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane 

 stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.

 e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked 

 quickly and put it on the ground soon.

 f.  After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small 

 fire but limited to inside the tunnel.

 g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool 

 boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B 

 requirement).

 h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at 

 around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up 

 and I had a three point.

 i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and 

 just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.

 

 

 Some facts:

 

 a. There is no modification on my fuel system.

 b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is 

 the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the 

 opening.

 c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I 

 do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.

 d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire 

 department probably caused more damage than the fire.

 

 

 I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my 

 leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to 

 death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly 

 the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on 

 there was no fear or regret.  After I called 911 and my insurance agent 

 I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative thought 

 was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I don't 

 want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what 

 happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I 

 found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this problem.

 

 

 

 Ted

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:43 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

donning it is the problem; I have smoke hood but  not quick donning type, so unless the AP is flying the hood won't  happen.

 [quote]   ---

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:02 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

Hi Ted,



Thanks so much for your report.  Great job!



One thing I'm wondering about is whether you remember using the flaps

at the time the fire started.  There's been some discussion about the

flap motor as an ignition source.



Dave Saylor

AirCrafters

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell



On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 3:53 AM, Ted Chang <tc1234c(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this point

jjessen01

Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 50

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

So very happy you made it through this event, Ted.  Great job!  



John J

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:34 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

Thanks for the info Ted.  I've had two off-field landings ..... engine 

related .... and there's no real way of knowing how you will react to an 

emergency until you really do have one.  Your reactions appear to be 

excellent.  Without knowing anything about you, you've got my respect 

(for what that's worth!).



I'm counting two RV-10 tunnel fires so far.  the first one was destroyed 

so no definitive info (that I have) emerged.  Your investigation will be 

valuable to the rest of us builders.



I have two questions:

1)  Where did the fuel escape from the system?

2)  What was the ignition source?



If you can answer those, you'll give a lot of builders more sleep at night.



To echo the many other comments .... I'm glad the outcome was 

successful.  The plane can be repaired.



Linn

On 4/28/2011 6:53 AM, Ted Chang wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this 

 point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending 

 the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends.  

 Without opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what 

 happened.  Here are my observations:



 a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.

 b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.

 c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this 

 particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal 

 when I taxied out and on the take off.

 d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I 

 still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane 

 stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.

 e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked 

 quickly and put it on the ground soon.

 f.  After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small 

 fire but limited to inside the tunnel.

 g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool 

 boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B 

 requirement).

 h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off 

 at around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field 

 slopes up and I had a three point.

 i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and 

 just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.

 Some facts:



 a. There is no modification on my fuel system.

 b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It 

 is the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from 

 the opening.

 c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. 

 I do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.

 d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire 

 department probably caused more damage than the fire.

 I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my 

 leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to 

 death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly 

 the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on 

 there was no fear or regret.  After I called 911 and my insurance 

 agent I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative 

 thought was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of 

 builders. I don't want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty 

 sure that what happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder 

 mistake. After I found the problem I will share with you so you can 

 avoid this problem.



 Ted

aerosport1

Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 231

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:01 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

Ted glad you are ok. Great job. Let me know if I can help.



Geoff Combs

N829GW



Sent from my iPhone Geoff

On Apr 28, 2011, at 12:29 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Thanks for the info Ted.  I've had two off-field landings ..... engine related .... and there's no real way of knowing how you will react to an emergency until you really do have one.  Your reactions appear to be excellent.  Without knowing anything about you, you've got my respect (for what that's worth!).

 

 I'm counting two RV-10 tunnel fires so far.  the first one was destroyed so no definitive info (that I have) emerged.  Your investigation will be valuable to the rest of us builders.

 

 I have two questions:

 1)  Where did the fuel escape from the system?

 2)  What was the ignition source?

 

 If you can answer those, you'll give a lot of builders more sleep at night.

 

 To echo the many other comments .... I'm glad the outcome was successful.  The plane can be repaired.

 

 Linn

 

 

 On 4/28/2011 6:53 AM, Ted Chang wrote:

> 

> 

> I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends.  Without opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.  Here are my observations:

> 

> a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.

> b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.

> c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal when I taxied out and on the take off.

> d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.

> e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked quickly and put it on the ground soon.

> f.  After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small fire but limited to inside the tunnel.

> g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B requirement).

> h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up and I had a three point.

> i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.

> 

> 

> Some facts:

> 

> a. There is no modification on my fuel system.

> b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the opening.

> c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.

> d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire department probably caused more damage than the fire.

> 

> 

> I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on there was no fear or regret.  After I called 911 and my insurance agent I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative thought was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I don't want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this problem.

> 

> 

> 

> Ted

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

_________________
Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:07 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

Ted - several of your actions are Commendable.  #1 you flew the aircraft

to the landing site and walked away. The remaining builders and your

underwriter should be appreciative.  #2 You were willing to share and

encourage other builders with the facts, when known. - Invaluable! #3

You removed your EFIS screens and took steps to protect the residual

value of what looks like a repairable incident.  Thank you.



Several questions came immediately to mind after considering those

actions.  Condition of Aluminum fuel tubing, flares and fittings?  Fire

Annunciation & Suppression systems?  What would or could have happened

if the tunnel had been composite rather than aluminum?  Smoke evacuation

and hoods. All will come out in time.  This incident is the second most

valuable RV-10 incident since the loss of Dan Lloyd and much will be

gained from the post incident review.



What comes to my mind is I seem to remember Scott Schmidt (#40111) as

the first builder to provide side access panels to reach/inspect to the

maze of tubing and to service fuel filters.  I reflect on DLM (#40168)

and his Halon (non dry powder) onboard suppression system.  I now

reflect on the comment of lowering the inherent pressure in the tunnel

and venting fumes/smoke to the outside atmosphere and will await the

flap switch query.  Your Picasso pictures are stunning! Glad your around

to share.



Your summation should be reviewed by all builders.



No modification to the VANS system.

Limiting fire damage is critical.

Fuel shutoff worked, as advertized.

Your prop strike damage was that to just the "now needed" engine

teardown or did it migrate into your avionics?



As a Tech Advisor, no one wants to hear from us how often we find flares

on tubing incorrectly manufactured or improperly torqued (under and

over).  Many builders have not added the test of their "Shutoff Valve to

cut engine operation" and confirm continued function at each conditional

inspection.  This drives that action home. I am thrilled that you are

reporting and I look forward to more news of the landing gear mounts,

legs and what you find.  I am willing to kick-in $100 for a N718PF Chang

Relief Fund, cause your data will be worth far more than that to current

aviators, current builders, future builders and loved ones.  If I could

bring Dan back I would spend even more.



Geoff can you weigh in on steps that can be applied to mitigate flame

damage to a composite tunnel under similar circumstance?  Lizard skin

a.k.a. Johnston (#40410) or Zetex heat shield batting or flame-resistant

topcoat chemical application?



John

#40600



--

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:26 am Post subject: Fire and off field landing

For what it's worth, I have a Halon bottle mounted on top of the console with the pin and handle in easy reach (right above the fuel pump).



I took aviation consumer's advice some time ago and removed the dry powder one from my airplane (if you've ever discharged one of these in a small area, you'll understand!).



I have a spring-loaded-closed, quarter-sized access hole in the tunnel cover.



Connected to the Halon nozzle is a flexible, plastic hose that I can quickly stick the end through the hole and then squeeze the Halon handle discharging into the tunnel.



grumpy

N184JM



On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:03 PM, John Cox wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Ted - several of your actions are Commendable.  #1 you flew the aircraft

 to the landing site and walked away. The remaining builders and your

 underwriter should be appreciative.  #2 You were willing to share and

 encourage other builders with the facts, when known. - Invaluable! #3

 You removed your EFIS screens and took steps to protect the residual

 value of what looks like a repairable incident.  Thank you.

 

 Several questions came immediately to mind after considering those

 actions.  Condition of Aluminum fuel tubing, flares and fittings?  Fire

 Annunciation & Suppression systems?  What would or could have happened

 if the tunnel had been composite rather than aluminum?  Smoke evacuation

 and hoods. All will come out in time.  This incident is the second most

 valuable RV-10 incident since the loss of Dan Lloyd and much will be

 gained from the post incident review.

 

 What comes to my mind is I seem to remember Scott Schmidt (#40111) as

 the first builder to provide side access panels to reach/inspect to the

 maze of tubing and to service fuel filters.  I reflect on DLM (#40168)

 and his Halon (non dry powder) onboard suppression system.  I now

 reflect on the comment of lowering the inherent pressure in the tunnel

 and venting fumes/smoke to the outside atmosphere and will await the

 flap switch query.  Your Picasso pictures are stunning! Glad your around

 to share.

 

 Your summation should be reviewed by all builders.

 

 No modification to the VANS system.

 Limiting fire damage is critical.

 Fuel shutoff worked, as advertized.

 Your prop strike damage was that to just the "now needed" engine

 teardown or did it migrate into your avionics?

 

 As a Tech Advisor, no one wants to hear from us how often we find flares

 on tubing incorrectly manufactured or improperly torqued (under and

 over).  Many builders have not added the test of their "Shutoff Valve to

 cut engine operation" and confirm continued function at each conditional

 inspection.  This drives that action home. I am thrilled that you are

 reporting and I look forward to more news of the landing gear mounts,

 legs and what you find.  I am willing to kick-in $100 for a N718PF Chang

 Relief Fund, cause your data will be worth far more than that to current

 aviators, current builders, future builders and loved ones.  If I could

 bring Dan back I would spend even more.

 

 Geoff can you weigh in on steps that can be applied to mitigate flame

 damage to a composite tunnel under similar circumstance?  Lizard skin

 a.k.a. Johnston (#40410) or Zetex heat shield batting or flame-resistant

 topcoat chemical application?

 

 John

 #40600

 

 

 

 --

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:06 pm Post subject: Fire and off field landing

I am considering using the unused port on my Halon bottle to plumb a line 

into the tunnel. WE are still discussing the Halon discharge in the cabin as 

the tunnel has some big holes to cabin.

---

civengpe

Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 105

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Fire and off field landing

Would someone mind posting a link to the picassa photos?

civengpe

Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 105

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:12 pm Post subject: Fire and off field landing

Can someone post a link to the picassa photos?



Shannon



On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com (gengrumpy(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com (gengrumpy(at)aol.com)>

  

 For what it's worth, I have a Halon bottle mounted on top of the console with the pin and handle in easy reach (right above the fuel pump).

 

 I took aviation consumer's advice some time ago and removed the dry powder one from my airplane (if you've ever discharged one of these in a small area, you'll understand!).

 

 I have a spring-loaded-closed, quarter-sized access hole in the tunnel cover.

 

 Connected to the Halon nozzle is a flexible, plastic hose that I can quickly stick the end through the hole and then squeeze the Halon handle discharging into the tunnel.

 

 grumpy

 N184JM

 



 On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:03 PM, John Cox wrote:

 

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>

 >

 > Ted - several of your actions are Commendable.  #1 you flew the aircraft

 > to the landing site and walked away. The remaining builders and your

 > underwriter should be appreciative.  #2 You were willing to share and

 > encourage other builders with the facts, when known. - Invaluable! #3

 > You removed your EFIS screens and took steps to protect the residual

 > value of what looks like a repairable incident.  Thank you.

 >

 > Several questions came immediately to mind after considering those

 > actions.  Condition of Aluminum fuel tubing, flares and fittings?  Fire

 > Annunciation & Suppression systems?  What would or could have happened

 > if the tunnel had been composite rather than aluminum?  Smoke evacuation

 > and hoods. All will come out in time.  This incident is the second most

 > valuable RV-10 incident since the loss of Dan Lloyd and much will be

 > gained from the post incident review.

 >

 > What comes to my mind is I seem to remember Scott Schmidt (#40111) as

 > the first builder to provide side access panels to reach/inspect to the

 > maze of tubing and to service fuel filters.  I reflect on DLM (#40168)

 > and his Halon (non dry powder) onboard suppression system.  I now

 > reflect on the comment of lowering the inherent pressure in the tunnel

 > and venting fumes/smoke to the outside atmosphere and will await the

 > flap switch query.  Your Picasso pictures are stunning! Glad your around

 > to share.

 >

 > Your summation should be reviewed by all builders.

 >

 > No modification to the VANS system.

 > Limiting fire damage is critical.

 > Fuel shutoff worked, as advertized.

 > Your prop strike damage was that to just the "now needed" engine

 > teardown or did it migrate into your avionics?

 >

 > As a Tech Advisor, no one wants to hear from us how often we find flares

 > on tubing incorrectly manufactured or improperly torqued (under and

 > over).  Many builders have not added the test of their "Shutoff Valve to

 > cut engine operation" and confirm continued function at each conditional

 > inspection.  This drives that action home. I am thrilled that you are

 > reporting and I look forward to more news of the landing gear mounts,

 > legs and what you find.  I am willing to kick-in $100 for a N718PF Chang

 > Relief Fund, cause your data will be worth far more than that to current

 > aviators, current builders, future builders and loved ones.  If I could

 > bring Dan back I would spend even more.

 >

 > Geoff can you weigh in on steps that can be applied to mitigate flame

 > damage to a composite tunnel under similar circumstance?  Lizard skin

 > a.k.a. Johnston (#40410) or Zetex heat shield batting or flame-resistant

 > topcoat chemical application?

 >

 > John

 > #40600

 >

 >

 >

 > --

pmnewlon

Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Posts: 21

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:48 pm Post subject: Fire and off field landing

https://picasaweb.google.com/tc1234c/4272011RV10Accident?authkey=Gv1sRgCPjmtviSyuKsQg#

 [quote]---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:28 pm Post subject: Fire and off field landing

I was!  At work, we use Halon under high pressure nitrogen in a s.steel

accumulator bottle along with a squib.  Your system could be quite

effective if directed to the most logical area around the fuel filter

and shutoff valve. Just pull the valve, no squib to worry about.  Heat

rises so I am interested in steps which could be taken to provide

additional temperature protection to a composite cover.  The one Picasso

shot Img. 1882 gives clarity to a "Sense of Urgency" with a hot seat.



There have been other posts on hydrocarbon sensors to alert when a

combustible source is sensed, temperature is rising above an established

threshold or other indicators.  It was great that Ted responded quickly

and accurately to getting the aircraft on the ground.



"When the engine stops, the aircraft is on fire, or a medical emergency

requires immediate action, the obligation of the pilot is to get the

aircraft on the ground." Think of it as becoming immediately the

underwriter's aircraft.  The pilots job is to be around to settle the

claim at a successful conclusion.  A friend was lost 5 years ago leaving

OSH while attempting solutions "in-flight" and conscientiously passing

over 8 perfectly good airports. He made it up to the point of touchdown

in Madison, WI. Kudos to Ted regardless of what is going to be found as

the cause.



Fire Annunciation?

Fire Suppression?

Pilot Skill?  We should all be discussing the various solutions and

pursue enhanced pilot training like LOBO.



John C.



--

bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject: Fire and off field landing

Good write up Ted. Glad your OK and sorry it happened. Good Luck

   From: Ted Chang <tc1234c(at)roadrunner.com>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thu, April 28, 2011 3:53:00 AM

Subject: Fire and off field landing

--> RV10-List message posted by: Ted Chang <tc1234c(at)roadrunner.com (tc1234c(at)roadrunner.com)>

I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends.  Without opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.  Here are my observations:

a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.

b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.

c.  Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal when I taxied out and on the take off.

d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.

e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked quickly and put it on the ground soon.

f.  After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small fire but limited to inside the tunnel.

g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B requirement).

h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up and I had a three point.

i. Don't rely on emergency checklist.  Remember the important steps and just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.

Some facts:

a. There is no modification on my fuel system.

b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the opening.

c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.

d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire department probably caused more damage than the fire.

I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on there was no fear or regret.  After I called 911 and my insurance agent I got to  walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative thought was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I don't want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I found the problem I will share wi========================

 [quote][b]

tc1234c(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: Fire and off field landing

I got the airplane back to the hangar and took a look into the engine 

compartment. Now I am pretty sure the cause of the fire is a loose fuel 

line b-nut on the mechanical fuel pump. It is entirely my mistake. So, 

my follow builders, make sure all your nuts and fittings are tightened. 

You don't need to worry about the fire problem I experienced. A few 

observations to follow:



a. The fuel flow down and under the tunnel. I did not know when the fire 

started since it was burning underneath.

b. After the fire burnt through the tunnel floor, it sent up some smoke 

smell.

c. Soon brake line and fuel line melted and the brake fluid produced a 

lot of smoke.

d. After brake fluid was consumed there were little smoke.

e. Fire did burn up around the mechanical fuel pump and up around left 

mag. Wire bundle attached to the engine mount on top the mag is charred.

f. Fire did not burn through the aluminum heat boxes. The sealant on top 

of the heat boxes are gone but not the ones around them.

g. I used plastic bushing, RTV, then a thick coat of 3M fire barrier 

sealant for firewall penetration. None of them get compromised.

h. I brought firewall insulator but have not installed yet. It would not 

do anything for this particular case.

i. The insulator on the tunnel floor can not withstand the fire. Most of 

them are gone with the floor.

j. Nose gear link (WD1016) folded and the rest of the nose gear are in 

good shape.

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