Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Flare Fitting Torque

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:09 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

On 4/28/11 2:03 PM, John Cox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   As a Tech Advisor, no one wants to hear from us how often we find flares

 on tubing incorrectly manufactured or improperly torqued (under and

 over)

I changed the subject line to start a new thread here.
	


Yes, this brought me back to reviewing what I need to do in the tunnel.  

I wanted to put this info out there to make sure I am "doing it right".



In AC 43.13-1B CHG1 on page 9-19 there is a table for flare nut torque 

values.



-4 nut = 50-65 inch pounds

-6 nut = 110-130 inch pounds



Also on page 7-8 of AC 43.13-1B there is a formula for determining the 

correct torque reading when using adapters such as crows feet.



E - Distance from drive centerline to adapter centerline

T - Recommended torque value

L - Length or torque wrench, drive centerline to handle centerline

Y - What the wrench should be set at with adapter in place



TxL / L+E = Y



So for my wrench with a crows foot and to torque a -6 flare nut to 110 

inch lbs works out like this...



110x10 / 10+1 = 100



My wrench should be set at 100 and *not* 110 in this case.



So, do I have all this right?  A few questions..



1.  I've seen different tables out there with different torque values 

for the flare nuts.  Is what I'm using above correct?



2.  So the torque range for -4 above is 50-65.  What do people use to 

set their wrench?  low end of 50?  high end of 65?  Split the difference 

for 57?



2.  There are some places in the tunnel where it just doesn't work 

getting a torque wrench in there even with a crows foot and/or 

extension.  What are folks doing in this case?



-Sean #40303

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

Each builder is the Manufacturer (not VANS), many have happily followed

the mantra "just build it".  Every builder receiving my Tech Inspection

hears the story of hats.  On this list most of the readers are wearing

"The Builder/Manufacturer" hat.  The moment the DAR is through with his

paperwork, you will learn the perspective of wearing "The Technician's"

hat.  Often profanity follows and a dialog which goes something like

"Why didn't I think of that".



Access to an area, service loops, application of torque to any fitting

carrying fluids, support of electrical wires from chafing, they all play

into the dialog.



The reason for at least two tables are possibly the difference in B nut

construction between aluminum or steel.  The proper use of a torque

wrench requires access, range of movement and proper application.

Hopefully the torque reading required is not at the lowest or highest

end of the measurement range. Both "under-torque" or more common "over

torque" lead to potential leaks and product failures.  Every time you

open/loosen a fitting on a fluid line, you should pressurize, fly the

aircraft then reinspect for telltale signs.  An improperly formed flare,

an over-torqued fitting, weak aluminum tubing or angular mis-match can

lead to potential leaks.  Always remember to have the input or output

tubing with a bend to take up errors of using a straight run that can be

too short or too long.  



Access to the tunnel whether from your favorite side or from the bottom

seem good points of consideration.



Think about what it will feel like when you re-enter a space for

servicing.  Several of the readers have been great on the "I would have

done it this way, or I am thinking about changing" the product provided

or method suggested by a parts supplier.



AC 43.13 is only a baseline in the absence of one selected method or

standard by the responsible manufacturer.  Often, such as with

electrical considerations, much has improved over the ideas of the

1940's - 50s techniques.  Chose wisely.



In the absence of a standard in Experimental Built, Anything Goes.  It's

an experiment.  We are blessed with many somewhat similar aircraft in

reasonably similar construction.



On your torque calculation problem you did not mention if the 1" was

straight in line, at a 90 degree or some variant.  Prop Hub bolts

provide a challenge.



John -#40600

--

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:15 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

Perhaps a larger potential problem than torque values for B nuts , is 

how to construct the proper flare. There are several different tools for 

doing so, and the techniques of using the tools vary, It's quite 

possible  with at least one tool (Parker) to 'over torque' the flaring 

tool and product a flare that becomes too thin and subject to breaking. 

(Ask me how I know:-) ). Years ago I posted my experience of 

'accidentally' finding that some fuel lines in the tunnel had been 'over 

flared' and 'over torqued' and resulted in the flare breaking and the 

line pulling free from the B nut! Fortunately I found it and redid all 

of the alum lines, or I would have found myself in a similar situation 

as Ted.



Deems

sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:26 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

Sorry, yes the 1" is straight inline.



So if I understand correctly with the torque range, it's best to split 

the difference as to be further away from both under and over torque.



The range numbers I gave were for Aluminum.  Are the numbers below what 

other builders are using?  I'd like to "chose wisely" in this particular 

case, but my choice is what the piece of paper tells me.



-4 nut = 50-65 inch pounds

-6 nut = 110-130 inch pounds



Thanks,



-Sean #40303



On 4/29/11 1:42 PM, John Cox wrote:

[quote] 



 Each builder is the Manufacturer (not VANS), many have happily followed

 the mantra "just build it".  Every builder receiving my Tech Inspection

 hears the story of hats.  On this list most of the readers are wearing

 "The Builder/Manufacturer" hat.  The moment the DAR is through with his

 paperwork, you will learn the perspective of wearing "The Technician's"

 hat.  Often profanity follows and a dialog which goes something like

 "Why didn't I think of that".



 Access to an area, service loops, application of torque to any fitting

 carrying fluids, support of electrical wires from chafing, they all play

 into the dialog.



 The reason for at least two tables are possibly the difference in B nut

 construction between aluminum or steel.  The proper use of a torque

 wrench requires access, range of movement and proper application.

 Hopefully the torque reading required is not at the lowest or highest

 end of the measurement range. Both "under-torque" or more common "over

 torque" lead to potential leaks and product failures.  Every time you

 open/loosen a fitting on a fluid line, you should pressurize, fly the

 aircraft then reinspect for telltale signs.  An improperly formed flare,

 an over-torqued fitting, weak aluminum tubing or angular mis-match can

 lead to potential leaks.  Always remember to have the input or output

 tubing with a bend to take up errors of using a straight run that can be

 too short or too long.



 Access to the tunnel whether from your favorite side or from the bottom

 seem good points of consideration.



 Think about what it will feel like when you re-enter a space for

 servicing.  Several of the readers have been great on the "I would have

 done it this way, or I am thinking about changing" the product provided

 or method suggested by a parts supplier.



 AC 43.13 is only a baseline in the absence of one selected method or

 standard by the responsible manufacturer.  Often, such as with

 electrical considerations, much has improved over the ideas of the

 1940's - 50s techniques.  Chose wisely.



 In the absence of a standard in Experimental Built, Anything Goes.  It's

 an experiment.  We are blessed with many somewhat similar aircraft in

 reasonably similar construction.



 On your torque calculation problem you did not mention if the 1" was

 straight in line, at a 90 degree or some variant.  Prop Hub bolts

 provide a challenge.



 John -#40600

 --

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:40 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

This was one of my motivations for going to flex lines.  At least

in that case you're going with lines that have no need to flare,

no worries about improper flares, no "learning curve" to getting

the right flare quality.  I wanted my lines to be leak free

and work right out of the box...and the best way to do that is

to 1) eliminate as many connection points as you can, and 2) use

some pre-made lines.  The quality of the tubing I had received

was also questionable...at times it would develop what was

kind of like galling and sometimes cracking, along what appeared

to be a grain in the metal somewhat.  I ordered some additional

tubing from ACS and from Vans, and different batches of the same

material weren't as bad.  So I never really fully trusted

the 3/8" lines that were produced from the material I got.

I'm still leery of the one going to the firewall...and would

love to change it out some day.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

On 4/29/2011 2:10 PM, Deems Davis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Perhaps a larger potential problem than torque values for B nuts , is

 how to construct the proper flare. There are several different tools for

 doing so, and the techniques of using the tools vary, It's quite

 possible with at least one tool (Parker) to 'over torque' the flaring

 tool and product a flare that becomes too thin and subject to breaking.

 (Ask me how I know:-) ). Years ago I posted my experience of

 'accidentally' finding that some fuel lines in the tunnel had been 'over

 flared' and 'over torqued' and resulted in the flare breaking and the

 line pulling free from the B nut! Fortunately I found it and redid all

 of the alum lines, or I would have found myself in a similar situation

 as Ted.



 Deems

rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: Use 5052-O aluminum tubing for fuel and brake lines

instead of Van's supplied 3003-O. My 3003-O went in with my aluminum hvac scrap. 



5052 has nearly twice the fatigue and tensile strength. 5052-O is used on certified aircraft for a reason. As noted above it flares much nicer. I used Bonaco flex hoses at the pedals and down the gear legs.

_________________
Wayne G.

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

Improved product quality helps in the overall build.  Getting rid of

H-5606 and upgrading hydraulic fluid is another Manufacturer decision.

Great call Wayne.



John



--

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:07 pm Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

John et al



The flash point of Aeroshell 31 is 83 degrees C. The flash point of

Aeroshell 41 is 254 degreees C. Take you pick. I seem to recall reading of

brake fires due to leaking brake fluid onto hot brakes.



I believe the cost difference is trival.



Cheers



Les

 



 



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

After seeing brake fluid fires, I do not recommend H-5606.  Then again working with Skydrol (phosphate ester), I won't chose that either.  Tim posted sources for 1 gallon cans of Aeroshell 41.  It can make all the difference in a better day with composite wheel pants in close proximity to the heat and fuel.

  



  John Cox



 

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Les Kearney

Sent: Sat 4/30/2011 9:13 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Flare Fitting Torque

  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>



John et al



The flash point of Aeroshell 31 is 83 degrees C. The flash point of

Aeroshell 41 is 254 degreees C. Take you pick. I seem to recall reading of

brake fires due to leaking brake fluid onto hot brakes.



I believe the cost difference is trival.



Cheers



Les





--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 3:39 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.html



If you don't mind another brand, and don't want to have 3.5 qts unused for the life of your plane.

 

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)>

 

 John et al

 

 The flash point of Aeroshell 31 is 83 degrees C. The flash point of

 Aeroshell 41 is 254 degreees C. Take you pick. I seem to recall reading of

 brake fires due to leaking brake fluid onto hot brakes.

 

 I believe the cost difference is trival.

 

 Cheers

 

 Les

 

 

 

 

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:15 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

another reason to pitch the vans tubing solution and install manufactured 

Teflon lines with the stainless steel braid from fuselage bulkhead fitting 

to brake..

---

partner14

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

Les, I think you got it backwards...   Aeroshell 31 is 205C, and 41 is 90C.

 Don McDonald



 

   From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 11:13:07 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Flare Fitting Torque



--> RV10-List message posted by: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)>



John et al



The flash point of Aeroshell 31 is 83 degrees C. The flash point of

Aeroshell 41 is 254 degreees C. Take you pick. I seem to recall reading of

brake fires due to leaking brake fluid onto hot brakes.



I believe the cost difference is trival.



Cheers



Les





--

_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:38 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

Guys,



In the FWIW category, here is what I've been using for brake fluid since first flight in Nov 2006:

Valvoline DEX/MERC auto trans fluid VV324, flash point 202° C / 395° F.



It is readily available and very affordable.grumpy

N184JM

     On May 1, 2011, at 10:40 AM, Don McDonald wrote:

[quote]Les, I think you got it backwards...   Aeroshell 31 is 205C, and 41 is 90C.

Don McDonald

From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 11:13:07 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Flare Fitting Torque



--> RV10-List message posted by: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)>



John et al



The flash point of Aeroshell 31 is 83 degrees C. The flash point of

Aeroshell 41 is 254 degreees C. Take you pick. I seem to recall reading of

brake fires due to leaking brake fluid onto hot brakes.



I believe the cost difference is trival.



Cheers



Les





--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

Milspec H-83282 is the improved product over H-5606 regardless of manufacturer name.  Coming in hot on a short runway requires converting the energy to heat transferred into the rotors.  Another improvement is increased rotor mass or larger surface area of calipers.  You cannot go wrong increasing a safety margin regarding fire. Tim James went with improved mass and pad area.

 

John

 

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen

Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:36 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Flare Fitting Torque



 

http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.html



If you don't mind another brand, and don't want to have 3.5 qts unused for the life of your plane.

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)>



John et al



The flash point of Aeroshell 31 is 83 degrees C. The flash point of

Aeroshell 41 is 254 degreees C. Take you pick. I seem to recall reading of

brake fires due to leaking brake fluid onto hot brakes.



I believe the cost difference is trival.



Cheers



Les





--

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:38 am Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

Several improvements can be made to stopping  distances; Matco is developing a wheel/brake (dual puck) which can be used in  lieu of the Cleveland mains; secondly making certain that the prop control is  full forward will increase aerodynamic braking.

  

 On a different note using Arial font and size  12 will increase the readability of the email; my main computer display is an HD  TV screen, so I am sitting 6-8 feet from the screen.   You last  answer must have been about size 8 and faint. Thanks.

 [quote]   ---

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:45 pm Post subject: Flare Fitting Torque

Don

  

 That was a test! You passed. The specs from Shell say that the  fire point on the Aeroshell 31 is 254C so you only get part marks  <vbg>.

  

 Brett at Bonaco Inc does a wonderful job supplying high  quality brake / fuel lines. I have eliminated the plastic lines in the Van's  spec and have also used his hoses on the gear legs to the  brakes. 

  

 All my fuel lines will be / are braided steel  lines. 

  

 Cheers

  

 Les   



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don  McDonald

Sent: May-01-11 9:40 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Flare Fitting  Torque

 

  Les, I think you got it backwards...   Aeroshell 31 is 205C, and  41 is 90C.

 Don McDonald



 

   From: Les Kearney  <kearney(at)shaw.ca>

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent:  Sat, April 30, 2011 11:13:07 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Flare Fitting  Torque



--> RV10-List message posted by: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)>



John et  al



The flash point of Aeroshell 31 is 83 degrees C. The flash point  of

Aeroshell 41 is 254 degreees C. Take you pick. I seem to recall reading  of

brake fires due to leaking brake fluid onto hot brakes.



I believe  the cost difference is  trival.



Cheers



Les





-----Original  Message-----

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)]  On Behalf Of John Cox

Sent: April-29-11 11:59 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:  RE: Re: Flare Fitting Torque



--> RV10-List message posted  by: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>



Improved  product quality helps in the overall build.  Getting rid of

H-5606 and  upgrading hydraulic fluid is another Manufacturer decision.

Great call  Wayne.



John



--

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum