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yak52
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 50
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 Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: Advisory Circular |
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Some of you may be interested in Advisory Circular #90-109, dated 3/30/11 regarding transitioning to new or different aircraft. It specifically references the Zodiac, among others, as belonging to a group of aircraft that:
(2) There are many more experimental airplanes that may look more like type certificated (TC) airplanes, but they actually have light control forces and/or very quick maneuvering response. Lightweight and lightly wing-loaded airplanes can also have the same quick, light response as many aerobatic airplanes. The hazard of light forces and rapid response is that without some level of training, the pilot may over-control the airplane. This can manifest itself during any phase of flight. The risks can vary from frustration to damage during takeoff and landing, to loss of control up to and including overstressing the airframe and structural failure.
[quote][b]
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don.honabach(at)pcperfect
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:43 pm Post subject: Advisory Circular |
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Great post –
On my first flight (which I foolishly did without any prior 601 training), I was caught off guard by how little you had to move the control stick. I quickly caught my over controlling ways, but the first 5 seconds were definitely uncomfortable. Now I love how I can fly the plane with minor movements. When I did my BFR though in a 172, it was weird having to move the yoke so much…
Don
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of roger lambert
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 2:22 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Advisory Circular
Some of you may be interested in Advisory Circular #90-109, dated 3/30/11 regarding transitioning to new or different aircraft. It specifically references the Zodiac, among others, as belonging to a group of aircraft that:
(2)
There are many more experimental airplanes that may look more like type certificated (TC) airplanes, but they actually have light control forces and/or very quick maneuvering response. Lightweight and lightly wing-loaded airplanes can also have the same quick, light response as many aerobatic airplanes. The hazard of light forces and rapid response is that without some level of training, the pilot may over-control the airplane. This can manifest itself during any phase of flight. The risks can vary from frustration to damage during takeoff and landing, to loss of control up to and including overstressing the airframe and structural failure.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.[/b][/quote]http://www.matronics.com/contribution[/b]<============[/b] [b]
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: Advisory Circular |
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Right you are Don:
I fly a couple of planes that are responsive (RV6, RV6A, AA1, AA5x). RESPONSIVE is the word, not sensitive. And that is the way a plane should fly.
I love taking a Cessna pilot up for a ride. I'll ask him if he knows how to do a 60 Bank Steep Turn. Of course the answer is YES. OK, I say .... When I say GO you do it... I'll wait a few minutes, let them relax and get the feel and then say GO! Within a blink and a half they have the plane either in a 70 or 80 Deg Bank or they turn white knuckle and say YOUR PLANE!
It is really not a case of stressing a plane. The plane is capable of most anything you would consider doing as a NEW pilot to that plane. But it sure puts a new respect into their heart about not being the worlds greatest test pilot. Of course you would NOT or should NOT consider going IFR in a plane you are not familiar with.
There are even courses on how to fly a plane with a laminar flow wing.
Barry
[quote]
Some of you may be interested in Advisory Circular #90-109, dated 3/30/11 regarding transitioning to new or different aircraft. It specifically references the Zodiac, among others, as belonging to a group of aircraft that:
(2)
There are many more experimental airplanes that may look more like type certificated (TC) airplanes, but they actually have light control forces and/or very quick maneuvering response. Lightweight and lightly wing-loaded airplanes can also have the same quick, light response as many aerobatic airplanes. The hazard of light forces and rapid response is that without some level of training, the pilot may over-control the airplane. This can manifest itself during any phase of flight. The risks can vary from frustration to damage during takeoff and landing, to loss of control up to and including overstressing the airframe and structural failure.
[b]
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:13 pm Post subject: Advisory Circular |
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Hi Barry,
I think the point the FAA guys are trying to make about sensitivity is really about the amount of force a pilot needs to apply to get a given response. All Spam Cans are pretty stodgy compared to many experimental or LSA models. This is required by part 23.
I don't have much time in Zodiacs but I have a lot in the last 2 years in LSA. In both cases the force needed to get a large pitch response is a lot less than the force used on a Cessna or Piper. The Zodiac is a little funny because the pitch force is very light while the roll force is very stiff.
For pilots who have flown only one or two different airplane models it is common to think it is the amount of force applied to the control yoke or stick that a pilot needs to learn. After flying 10 or 20 different planes you learn the force doesn't even matter. Rather, you apply whatever force is needed to get the attitude you want. This is the sort of issue transition training deals with for pilots with few models under their belt.
I think the new advisory circular is a real value. It probably is this circular that made it possible for me to get first flight insurance without any time in type for the Zodiac. My experience with a Tecnam Echo really applies to the Zodiac challenge quite well.
Paul
Camas, WA
XL nearing inspection.
On 5/9/2011 8:15 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: [quote] Right you are Don:
I fly a couple of planes that are responsive (RV6, RV6A, AA1, AA5x). RESPONSIVE is the word, not sensitive. And that is the way a plane should fly.
I love taking a Cessna pilot up for a ride. I'll ask him if he knows how to do a 60 Bank Steep Turn. Of course the answer is YES. OK, I say .... When I say GO you do it... I'll wait a few minutes, let them relax and get the feel and then say GO! Within a blink and a half they have the plane either in a 70 or 80 Deg Bank or they turn white knuckle and say YOUR PLANE!
It is really not a case of stressing a plane. The plane is capable of most anything you would consider doing as a NEW pilot to that plane. But it sure puts a new respect into their heart about not being the worlds greatest test pilot. Of course you would NOT or should NOT consider going IFR in a plane you are not familiar with.
There are even courses on how to fly a plane with a laminar flow wing.
Barry
| Quote: |
Some of you may be interested in Advisory Circular #90-109, dated 3/30/11 regarding transitioning to new or different aircraft. It specifically references the Zodiac, among others, as belonging to a group of aircraft that:
(2)
There are many more experimental airplanes that may look more like type certificated (TC) airplanes, but they actually have light control forces and/or very quick maneuvering response. Lightweight and lightly wing-loaded airplanes can also have the same quick, light response as many aerobatic airplanes. The hazard of light forces and rapid response is that without some level of training, the pilot may over-control the airplane. This can manifest itself during any phase of flight. The risks can vary from frustration to damage during takeoff and landing, to loss of control up to and including overstressing the airframe and structural failure.
|
[b]
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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: Advisory Circular |
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Paul,
I'm looking forward to your first flight. I earned my SP in an
Echo Super so the comparison will be very interesting to me. From my
experience and what I've read about the 601, I wouldn't think they would
be too similar. Keep us posted, please.
Ron
On 05/09/2011 12:40 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Barry,
I think the point the FAA guys are trying to make about sensitivity is
really about the amount of force a pilot needs to apply to get a given
response. All Spam Cans are pretty stodgy compared to many
experimental or LSA models. This is required by part 23.
I don't have much time in Zodiacs but I have a lot in the last 2 years
in LSA. In both cases the force needed to get a large pitch response
is a lot less than the force used on a Cessna or Piper. The Zodiac is
a little funny because the pitch force is very light while the roll
force is very stiff.
For pilots who have flown only one or two different airplane models it
is common to think it is the amount of force applied to the control
yoke or stick that a pilot needs to learn. After flying 10 or 20
different planes you learn the force doesn't even matter. Rather, you
apply whatever force is needed to get the attitude you want. This is
the sort of issue transition training deals with for pilots with few
models under their belt.
I think the new advisory circular is a real value. It probably is
this circular that made it possible for me to get first flight
insurance without any time in type for the Zodiac. My experience with
a Tecnam Echo really applies to the Zodiac challenge quite well.
Paul
Camas, WA
XL nearing inspection.
On 5/9/2011 8:15 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Right you are Don:
>
> I fly a couple of planes that are responsive (RV6, RV6A, AA1, AA5x).
> RESPONSIVE is the word, not sensitive. And that is the way a plane
> should fly.
>
> I love taking a Cessna pilot up for a ride. I'll ask him if he knows
> how to do a 60 Bank Steep Turn. Of course the answer is YES. OK, I
> say .... When I say GO you do it... I'll wait a few minutes, let them
> relax and get the feel and then say GO! Within a blink and a half
> they have the plane either in a 70 or 80 Deg Bank or they turn white
> knuckle and say YOUR PLANE!
>
> It is really not a case of stressing a plane. The plane is capable
> of most anything you would consider doing as a NEW pilot to that
> plane. But it sure puts a new respect into their heart about not
> being the worlds greatest test pilot. Of course you would NOT or
> should NOT consider going IFR in a plane you are not familiar with.
>
> There are even courses on how to fly a plane with a laminar flow wing.
>
> Barry
> Some of you may be interested in Advisory Circular #90-109, dated
> 3/30/11 regarding transitioning to new or different aircraft. It
> specifically references the Zodiac, among others, as belonging to
> a group of aircraft that:
>
> *(2) *
>
> There are many more experimental airplanes that may look more
> like type certificated (TC) airplanes, but they actually have
> light control forces and/or very quick maneuvering response.
> Lightweight and lightly wing-loaded airplanes can also have the
> same quick, light response as many aerobatic airplanes. The
> hazard of light forces and rapid response is that without some
> level of training, the pilot may over-control the airplane. This
> can manifest itself during any phase of flight. The risks can
> vary from frustration to damage during takeoff and landing, to
> loss of control up to and including overstressing the airframe
> and structural failure.
>
> *
> *
*
*
|
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psm(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: Advisory Circular |
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Hi Ron,
I'm looking forward to it too!
The Zodiac and Echo Super are almost identical in all the important
respects. They have similar empty and gross weights, the same wing
area, the same top speed (give or take), the same stall speed and wing
loading. Both have two seats side by side, flaps, tricycle gear, nose
gear steering, and dual throttle knobs.
The differences include: My Zodiac has a bigger engine (Jabiru 3300);
low wing vs. high wing; Center stick vs. dual sticks; toe brakes vs.
center single brake handle. My Zodiac has carburetor heat while the
Tecnam does not.
In my case the avionics are even nearly identical. Both planes have
dual Dynon 100/120 screens. Both have Garmin GPS (296 vs Aera 500).
Radios are Garmin SL30 Nav/Comm vs SL 40 Comm. They have identical
stick grips, but the Tecnam didn't have aileron trim and the Zodiac does.
My Zodiac has an LRI. My Echo had an autopilot and backup steam gauges.
The input force requirements and responses are different. This is not
very important to me since I have flown some 30 different make/model
airplanes.
It would be very difficult to find two more similar planes. This is not
a big surprise since both were designed to be maximum LSA designs.
Paul
On 5/9/2011 1:28 PM, Ron Steele wrote:
| Quote: |
Paul,
I'm looking forward to your first flight. I earned my SP in an
Echo Super so the comparison will be very interesting to me. From my
experience and what I've read about the 601, I wouldn't think they
would be too similar. Keep us posted, please.
Ron
On 05/09/2011 12:40 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> Hi Barry,
>
> I think the point the FAA guys are trying to make about sensitivity
> is really about the amount of force a pilot needs to apply to get a
> given response. All Spam Cans are pretty stodgy compared to many
> experimental or LSA models. This is required by part 23.
|
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