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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2878
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:21 am Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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So yesterday I ordered up my fiberglass cloth
and some West System epoxy since mine isn't
good any longer. I called ACS before I hit
enter on the order because it said Hazard by
the line items. I called and they said that
it wouldn't have hazardous fees, for such and
such a reason. No worries. My other line items
were 4 or 5 different weights and types of
Glass cloth, so I could have some variety
for things if I wanted. Total weight maybe
should have been 5 lbs or so maybe, tops.
With no hazardous fees, I was happy and good to
go.
Got a call after ordering (a voicemail) and a
nice lady said she changed my shipping from 3-day
to ground, because Ground would be the same speed
from their GA location, and it would prevent
hazardous fees if it went by air, and it would
save me some money. Still all good.
Got my invoice, and it was almost $50 in shipping.
Called to figure out why. Just found out...
They shipped in 2 boxes, with the epoxy separate,
to keep it away from the cloth..perhaps a
flammability issue. no big deal...2 boxes should
be cheap.
Where they went haywire was the cloth, of all things.
I had ordered 1 yard of 4 or 5 different types. It
shouldn't have weighed more than a couple lbs.
But, they ROLLED it, on a roll, not folded at all,
because some people like it that way. And, due to
the oversize length dimension, it was then billed at
the 30lbs!!!! shipping rate. They called about
the shipping change to ground...which was nice, but
I sure wish they'd have called about the oversize
shipping. I'd have told them to fold it in half
at least.
I've heard this same thing happens to people who
buy heatshrink, so I thought I'd bring it up again.
They don't roll the heatshrink but send it in long
long boxes in sections....which then costs a ton.
So, don't assume that ACS will actual think, and always
work in what YOU think is your best interest. If you
order ANYTHING that is possible it could be shipped
flat, assume that they'll ship it in the worst possible
way. From now on, even if I ordered rope from them,
I'm going to specify "please coil rope"....so they
don't ship me a 40' rope on a semi flatbed.
That brought the cost of my little nose fairing up
to about $139.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 1188 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:49 am Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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I would forward your comments to Jim Irwin. You just might get some relief.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 7:18 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
So yesterday I ordered up my fiberglass cloth
and some West System epoxy since mine isn't
good any longer. I called ACS before I hit
enter on the order because it said Hazard by
the line items. I called and they said that
it wouldn't have hazardous fees, for such and
such a reason. No worries. My other line items
were 4 or 5 different weights and types of
Glass cloth, so I could have some variety
for things if I wanted. Total weight maybe
should have been 5 lbs or so maybe, tops.
With no hazardous fees, I was happy and good to
go.
Got a call after ordering (a voicemail) and a
nice lady said she changed my shipping from 3-day
to ground, because Ground would be the same speed
from their GA location, and it would prevent
hazardous fees if it went by air, and it would
save me some money. Still all good.
Got my invoice, and it was almost $50 in shipping.
Called to figure out why. Just found out...
They shipped in 2 boxes, with the epoxy separate,
to keep it away from the cloth..perhaps a
flammability issue. no big deal...2 boxes should
be cheap.
Where they went haywire was the cloth, of all things.
I had ordered 1 yard of 4 or 5 different types. It
shouldn't have weighed more than a couple lbs.
But, they ROLLED it, on a roll, not folded at all,
because some people like it that way. And, due to
the oversize length dimension, it was then billed at
the 30lbs!!!! shipping rate. They called about
the shipping change to ground...which was nice, but
I sure wish they'd have called about the oversize
shipping. I'd have told them to fold it in half
at least.
I've heard this same thing happens to people who
buy heatshrink, so I thought I'd bring it up again.
They don't roll the heatshrink but send it in long
long boxes in sections....which then costs a ton.
So, don't assume that ACS will actual think, and always
work in what YOU think is your best interest. If you
order ANYTHING that is possible it could be shipped
flat, assume that they'll ship it in the worst possible
way. From now on, even if I ordered rope from them,
I'm going to specify "please coil rope"....so they
don't ship me a 40' rope on a semi flatbed.
That brought the cost of my little nose fairing up
to about $139.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a Guest
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:50 am Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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I've received >many< cans of resin that got dented and leaked. Always
a big mess. That may be why they ship it separately now. And that
may have been me yelling at ACS about folding the cloth...
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 7:18 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:
Quote: |
So yesterday I ordered up my fiberglass cloth
and some West System epoxy since mine isn't
good any longer. Â I called ACS before I hit
enter on the order because it said Hazard by
the line items. Â I called and they said that
it wouldn't have hazardous fees, for such and
such a reason. Â No worries. Â My other line items
were 4 or 5 different weights and types of
Glass cloth, so I could have some variety
for things if I wanted. Â Total weight maybe
should have been 5 lbs or so maybe, tops.
With no hazardous fees, I was happy and good to
go.
Got a call after ordering (a voicemail) and a
nice lady said she changed my shipping from 3-day
to ground, because Ground would be the same speed
from their GA location, and it would prevent
hazardous fees if it went by air, and it would
save me some money. Â Still all good.
Got my invoice, and it was almost $50 in shipping.
Called to figure out why. Â Just found out...
They shipped in 2 boxes, with the epoxy separate,
to keep it away from the cloth..perhaps a
flammability issue. Â no big deal...2 boxes should
be cheap.
Where they went haywire was the cloth, of all things.
I had ordered 1 yard of 4 or 5 different types. It
shouldn't have weighed more than a couple lbs.
But, they ROLLED it, on a roll, not folded at all,
because some people like it that way. Â And, due to
the oversize length dimension, it was then billed at
the 30lbs!!!! shipping rate. Â They called about
the shipping change to ground...which was nice, but
I sure wish they'd have called about the oversize
shipping. Â I'd have told them to fold it in half
at least.
I've heard this same thing happens to people who
buy heatshrink, so I thought I'd bring it up again.
They don't roll the heatshrink but send it in long
long boxes in sections....which then costs a ton.
So, don't assume that ACS will actual think, and always
work in what YOU think is your best interest. Â If you
order ANYTHING that is possible it could be shipped
flat, assume that they'll ship it in the worst possible
way. Â From now on, even if I ordered rope from them,
I'm going to specify "please coil rope"....so they
don't ship me a 40' rope on a semi flatbed.
That brought the cost of my little nose fairing up
to about $139.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
|
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rleffler
Joined: 05 Nov 2006 Posts: 680
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:55 am Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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I would drop Jim Irwin an email. I have his address at home if you need it Sounds like somebody in shipping did something stupid.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 21, 2011, at 10:18 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:
Quote: |
So yesterday I ordered up my fiberglass cloth
and some West System epoxy since mine isn't
good any longer. I called ACS before I hit
enter on the order because it said Hazard by
the line items. I called and they said that
it wouldn't have hazardous fees, for such and
such a reason. No worries. My other line items
were 4 or 5 different weights and types of
Glass cloth, so I could have some variety
for things if I wanted. Total weight maybe
should have been 5 lbs or so maybe, tops.
With no hazardous fees, I was happy and good to
go.
Got a call after ordering (a voicemail) and a
nice lady said she changed my shipping from 3-day
to ground, because Ground would be the same speed
from their GA location, and it would prevent
hazardous fees if it went by air, and it would
save me some money. Still all good.
Got my invoice, and it was almost $50 in shipping.
Called to figure out why. Just found out...
They shipped in 2 boxes, with the epoxy separate,
to keep it away from the cloth..perhaps a
flammability issue. no big deal...2 boxes should
be cheap.
Where they went haywire was the cloth, of all things.
I had ordered 1 yard of 4 or 5 different types. It
shouldn't have weighed more than a couple lbs.
But, they ROLLED it, on a roll, not folded at all,
because some people like it fthat way. And, due to
the oversize length dimension, it was then billed at
the 30lbs!!!! shipping rate. They called about
the shipping change to ground...which was nice, but
I sure wish they'd have called about the oversize
shipping. I'd have told them to fold it in half
at least.
I've heard this same thing happens to people who
buy heatshrink, so I thought I'd bring it up again.
They don't roll the heatshrink but send it in long
long boxes in sections....which then costs a ton.
So, don't assume that ACS will actual think, and always
work in what YOU think is your best interest. If you
order ANYTHING that is possible it could be shipped
flat, assume that they'll ship it in the worst possible
way. From now on, even if I ordered rope from them,
I'm going to specify "please coil rope"....so they
don't ship me a 40' rope on a semi flatbed.
That brought the cost of my little nose fairing up
to about $139.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________ Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler |
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stein(at)steinair.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:05 am Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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For composite materials I typically like to use "FIBREGLAST"
(www.fibreglast.com). The stuff sometimes is a little bit more expensive,
but given the fact that composites is all they do, they do it well and their
staff is very knowledgeable.
Regarding shipping, it can be pricey...but here's a real world example. My
last order from them was almost $465 and included a bunch of epoxy,
polyurethane liquid mix foam, microballoons, glass cloth, carbon cloth,
talc, brushes, squeegees, etc.. The total charge for shipping on that order
was $59.
Anyway, not saying you have to buy the stuff from them, just an option that
I've found fairly reliable over the years. Like everything, you can find
some of it cheaper if you spend the time but that company bridges the gap
between price, knowledge and reliability....overall kind of like my shop!
My 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein
BTW...we can officially post in the RV-10 section now that we (Jed) actually
have an RV10 kit in the back going together!!!!!
--
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2878
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:05 am Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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Yeah, I could complain up the ladder, but my intention
isn't to get them to eat the cost. I just think that
they should adopt a policy where ANYTHING that ships
oversize, requires either a customer note first that
was on the order, or a phone call to verify. That
would have fixed my issue completely. In fact, maybe
I *should* contact him and just tell him that one point.
And as Dave noted, some people like him probably
don't want their glass cloth folded. For me, I
only needed a square foot maybe. For things he
does, he may want 3 yards of unbroken fibers.
So I can see why they might roll it.....i just think
that before they ship, if it's going to go oversize,
they should call first.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 6/21/2011 9:47 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote: | I would forward your comments to Jim Irwin. You just might get some relief.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 7:18 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com
<mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com>> wrote:
<mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com>>
So yesterday I ordered up my fiberglass cloth
and some West System epoxy since mine isn't
good any longer. I called ACS before I hit
enter on the order because it said Hazard by
the line items. I called and they said that
it wouldn't have hazardous fees, for such and
such a reason. No worries. My other line items
were 4 or 5 different weights and types of
Glass cloth, so I could have some variety
for things if I wanted. Total weight maybe
should have been 5 lbs or so maybe, tops.
With no hazardous fees, I was happy and good to
go.
Got a call after ordering (a voicemail) and a
nice lady said she changed my shipping from 3-day
to ground, because Ground would be the same speed
from their GA location, and it would prevent
hazardous fees if it went by air, and it would
save me some money. Still all good.
Got my invoice, and it was almost $50 in shipping.
Called to figure out why. Just found out...
They shipped in 2 boxes, with the epoxy separate,
to keep it away from the cloth..perhaps a
flammability issue. no big deal...2 boxes should
be cheap.
Where they went haywire was the cloth, of all things.
I had ordered 1 yard of 4 or 5 different types. It
shouldn't have weighed more than a couple lbs.
But, they ROLLED it, on a roll, not folded at all,
because some people like it that way. And, due to
the oversize length dimension, it was then billed at
the 30lbs!!!! shipping rate. They called about
the shipping change to ground...which was nice, but
I sure wish they'd have called about the oversize
shipping. I'd have told them to fold it in half
at least.
I've heard this same thing happens to people who
buy heatshrink, so I thought I'd bring it up again.
They don't roll the heatshrink but send it in long
long boxes in sections....which then costs a ton.
So, don't assume that ACS will actual think, and always
work in what YOU think is your best interest. If you
order ANYTHING that is possible it could be shipped
flat, assume that they'll ship it in the worst possible
way. From now on, even if I ordered rope from them,
I'm going to specify "please coil rope"....so they
don't ship me a 40' rope on a semi flatbed.
That brought the cost of my little nose fairing up
to about $139.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
====__==============================__==
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/__Navigator?RV10-List
====__==============================__==
http://forums.matronics.com
====__==============================__==
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/__contribution
====__==============================__==
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2878
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:24 am Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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Cool, I looked hard for a supplier and found that ACS was as
good as the boat suppliers, so went there, but next time
I'll definitely look at these guys. Always like to hear
a good referral.
So is this a brand new -10, or did you pick up someone's
kit that they gave up on? What's the builder number?
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 6/21/2011 10:03 AM, Stein Bruch wrote:
[quote]
For composite materials I typically like to use "FIBREGLAST"
(www.fibreglast.com). The stuff sometimes is a little bit more expensive,
but given the fact that composites is all they do, they do it well and their
staff is very knowledgeable.
Regarding shipping, it can be pricey...but here's a real world example. My
last order from them was almost $465 and included a bunch of epoxy,
polyurethane liquid mix foam, microballoons, glass cloth, carbon cloth,
talc, brushes, squeegees, etc.. The total charge for shipping on that order
was $59.
Anyway, not saying you have to buy the stuff from them, just an option that
I've found fairly reliable over the years. Like everything, you can find
some of it cheaper if you spend the time but that company bridges the gap
between price, knowledge and reliability....overall kind of like my shop!
My 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein
BTW...we can officially post in the RV-10 section now that we (Jed) actually
have an RV10 kit in the back going together!!!!!
--
| - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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orchidman
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 277 Location: Oklahoma City - KRCE
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n223rv(at)wolflakeairport Guest
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:54 am Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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I had the same problem with Vans. They send me a $20 piece of angke aluminum that cost $125 to ship!! They didn't bother to mention that to me..... But when I inquired, they apologized and we split the shipping cost.
I would have purchased it locally if I had known.....
-Mike Kraus
Do not archive
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 21, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:
Quote: |
Yeah, I could complain up the ladder, but my intention
isn't to get them to eat the cost. I just think that
they should adopt a policy where ANYTHING that ships
oversize, requires either a customer note first that
was on the order, or a phone call to verify. That
would have fixed my issue completely. In fact, maybe
I *should* contact him and just tell him that one point.
And as Dave noted, some people like him probably
don't want their glass cloth folded. For me, I
only needed a square foot maybe. For things he
does, he may want 3 yards of unbroken fibers.
So I can see why they might roll it.....i just think
that before they ship, if it's going to go oversize,
they should call first.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 6/21/2011 9:47 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> I would forward your comments to Jim Irwin. You just might get some relief.
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 7:18 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com
> <mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com>> wrote:
>
>
> <mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com>>
>
> So yesterday I ordered up my fiberglass cloth
> and some West System epoxy since mine isn't
> good any longer. I called ACS before I hit
> enter on the order because it said Hazard by
> the line items. I called and they said that
> it wouldn't have hazardous fees, for such and
> such a reason. No worries. My other line items
> were 4 or 5 different weights and types of
> Glass cloth, so I could have some variety
> for things if I wanted. Total weight maybe
> should have been 5 lbs or so maybe, tops.
> With no hazardous fees, I was happy and good to
> go.
>
> Got a call after ordering (a voicemail) and a
> nice lady said she changed my shipping from 3-day
> to ground, because Ground would be the same speed
> from their GA location, and it would prevent
> hazardous fees if it went by air, and it would
> save me some money. Still all good.
>
> Got my invoice, and it was almost $50 in shipping.
> Called to figure out why. Just found out...
> They shipped in 2 boxes, with the epoxy separate,
> to keep it away from the cloth..perhaps a
> flammability issue. no big deal...2 boxes should
> be cheap.
>
> Where they went haywire was the cloth, of all things.
> I had ordered 1 yard of 4 or 5 different types. It
> shouldn't have weighed more than a couple lbs.
> But, they ROLLED it, on a roll, not folded at all,
> because some people like it that way. And, due to
> the oversize length dimension, it was then billed at
> the 30lbs!!!! shipping rate. They called about
> the shipping change to ground...which was nice, but
> I sure wish they'd have called about the oversize
> shipping. I'd have told them to fold it in half
> at least.
>
> I've heard this same thing happens to people who
> buy heatshrink, so I thought I'd bring it up again.
> They don't roll the heatshrink but send it in long
> long boxes in sections....which then costs a ton.
>
> So, don't assume that ACS will actual think, and always
> work in what YOU think is your best interest. If you
> order ANYTHING that is possible it could be shipped
> flat, assume that they'll ship it in the worst possible
> way. From now on, even if I ordered rope from them,
> I'm going to specify "please coil rope"....so they
> don't ship me a 40' rope on a semi flatbed.
> That brought the cost of my little nose fairing up
> to about $139.
>
> --
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
> ====__==============================__==
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/__Navigator?RV10-List
> ====__==============================__==
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ====__==============================__==
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/__contribution
> ====__==============================__==
>
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
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Neal.George(at)hurlburt.a Guest
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:47 am Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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I buy all my fiberglass from www.thayercraft.com
West Epoxy comes from a local marina (cheaper than all the online
sources) or www.JamestownDistributors.com when the local guys are out.
2-part urethane foam comes from www.uscomposites.com
neal
--
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Dick Sipp
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 215 Location: Hope, MI
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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Tim:
West System products are very popular in boating world, any bigger boat
dealer will probably have what you need, there should plenty of them in your
area. I buy it locally.
Dick
--
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 885 Location: Castro Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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A few years ago I ordered an aircraft battery, plus about 8 oz of small parts, from ACS. The ACS catalog said "Free shipping on batteries".
When I got it, there was a $25 shipping charge. When I complained, they said "You didn't SPECIFY that you wanted free shipping". Duh.
I complained some more, and they said, "Okay, but we'll charge shipping and handling on the other parts." I said fine.
They charged me $8 S&H for the other parts. These were so small and light that they had been stuffed into the battery box- it really didn't cost them anything more to ship them. Not a lot of money, just the principle.
Bob
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pilotdds(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:59 pm Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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Tim makes a good point to ask about shipping costs.It costs a lot to ship the stuff we use-ask about crating and shipping a canopy frame from Oregon to California-more than the cost of the frame,same with a canopy from Todds in Florida .I for one have found aircraft spruce invaluable with my various projects there huge inventory of parts shipped efficiently for the most part and there catalog is an excellent reference and they have virtually everything .Nothing in my world is perfect but ACS has been a real asset for me.Also ACS has no minimum order and will ship us mail.Very efficient when you need two dollars worth of nuts and bolts.
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007 Posts: 559 Location: Appleton, WI USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:36 pm Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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There used to be a West store just down the road in the strip mall area off of 9th for anyone going to Airventure. If that one closed we still have one on College Ave in Appleton if you have a car. Stock up there if shipping rates are getting that silly and you don't have one locally.
Michael
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2878
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:20 pm Post subject: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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I've got a follow-up surprise on this shipping thing....
I didn't contact ACS at all. I have been too busy to
even think about it. But just now, I got an email from
Jim Irwin himself, letting me know that he checked into
my shipping costs and had info.
Apparently many products do have prompts that appear
in shipping, to let them notify the customer before they
would package in a way that costs us lots of money.
Turns out the prompts on these fiberglass items were
missing...otherwise they'd have called me first.
So, they calculated what my shipping would have been,
had it not shipped oversize, and only shipped standard,
and they credited me back the difference....all without
me even contacting them. They somehow saw my post
here, and wanted to reach out and make it right.
I think they did a fantastic job, so I'm pretty pleased.
I've been buying from them for many years, even before
I started building a plane, and they're one of the first
places I check for aircraft things, because even though
shipping is from Georgia at the closest, things go
out the door quick and arrive quick. So, I'm glad that
not only have they been good in the past, but they
made this "bad" .... good.
Thanks Jim, if you're reading this, you done well.
Thought y'all might want to see that, because when a
company does that, it shows some integrity.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 885 Location: Castro Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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Me too!
Jim Irwin read my rant about the shipping cost of the "free shipping" battery, sent me a private email apologizing, and credited my account with the shipping I did pay.
I've always used ACS for their large inventory and convenience; this is now another reason to use them!
Bob
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_________________ Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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bill.peyton
Joined: 19 Sep 2010 Posts: 198 Location: St. Louis, MO
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Aircraft Spruce Shipping - Always Beware |
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I just had a similar experience with ACS and shipping. I ordered 4 pieces of piano hinge and specifically asked if the 6 ft lengths were oversize. If they were, I was will to have them cut down to 4 ft. The operator said standard shipping would apply. Guess what, $42 for the hinge and $25 for the shipping! What koolaid are these guys drinking? I'm in St. louis, next time I'll drive to Wicks.
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_________________ Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC |
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