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Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

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N13472(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:09 pm Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

--

alikatz(at)mbay.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:40 pm Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

Tom & Hal,

   Thank you for the update, our thoughts and prayers are with them...



Best Regards,

Jim Selby Jr

Quoting Tom Elliott <N13472(at)aol.com>:



[quote] 



 --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:21 am Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

Hal,

Thanks for the update. Good piloting skills and the good Lord smiled on

them.

The compression fractures will take some time to recover from to say the

least. As long as they are stable and with no fragments compressing the

canal would give them a minimum of 1 month to knit the fracture but 6 months

for everything to settle down. They may have some degree of pain from this

for a while if not life.

Good news is they are still able to sit/stand in the vertical and take

nourishment under their own power.

Guess now's not a good time to ask Doug about those rocker box gaskets ect,

Huh?  :^))

God Speed Doug and Kathleen.

Get well soon, 

Doc 



--

ReadeG(at)cairnwood.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

I was at Ryan Field over the weekend and got to see Doug's nicely

tricked out Super Cub - has a 4 blade prop and many of the STC mods.

Ryan Field is right next to West Glacier and is a gem.  Not all that

difficult in terms of back country strips but the departure environment

leaves very few options for recovery from an event such as Doug's.

Pretty hostile terrain - so I commend Doug for survivable landing.  Very

impressive - and I too am thinking of and hoping for a most speedy

recovery for Doug and Kathy.     



Reade Genzlinger

Cairnwood Cooperative Corp.

215.914.0370

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:24 am Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Tom Elliott <N13472(at)aol.com (N13472(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The only possibility was a

 small clearing to the right as Doug at 300-400' agl could not turn back.  	




This is not a criticism of Doug but Hal's posting just reminded me of this. 

I have experimented with the turn-back maneuver in various different aircraft. I found that with some aircraft, turn back at 400agl is not only possible but provides comfortable margin. With others (most notably the Yak-52 and CJ6A) turn back is not possible from ANY altitude. (Turn-back to land downwind may be possible from some point after the beginning of the turn to crosswind and possibly in the turn to downwind in the CJ/YAK. I haven't practiced this ... yet.) (A stopped-prop helps immensely.)

 



Bottom line: it is worth checking out with any airplane you fly. And if you know the appropriate altitudes, you can put them in your take-off go/no-go list. Mine has two: abort point on the runway and turn back point/altitude for singles. For gliders they are the turn-back point (downwind landing), abbreviated pattern point (midfield turn to land without running off the end), and normal turn-back point (from which a normal pattern can be completed). 

 



In a twin you have to also include the point in the take-off where you have enough altitude and airspeed to safely cage the dead engine and proceed single engine. Failure to reach that point means engine failure is the same as engine failure in a single -- you are going down. Period. I refer to the section of take off from the time I pass my runway abort point to the safe altitude/airspeed to proceed single-engine as the "dead zone". 

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

 +1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

dennis(at)nickson.biz
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

Doug and Kath:

Our best wishes for a quick and complete recovery.

Sherry and Dennis Nickson





Dennis A. Nickson, Broker # 777174

Nickson and Associates

2931 Boeing Road

Cameron Park, CA. 95682



530 677-9760 office

530 677-1800 fax

530 957-9760 cell

www.nickson.biz

dennis(at)nickson.biz

          __I__

______( * )______

           o/ \o

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

What does caging the dead engine mean? If it's dead, you have lost the ability to Feather it haven't you? Doubtful that is windmilling at takeoff speed.



Bill



On Jun 27, 2011, at 1:22 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:



[quote]On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Tom Elliott <[url=mailto:N13472(at)aol.com]N13472(at)aol.com (N13472(at)aol.com)[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The only possibility was a

 small clearing to the right as Doug at 300-400' agl could not turn back. 	




This is not a criticism of Doug but Hal's posting just reminded me of this. 

I have experimented with the turn-back maneuver in various different aircraft. I found that with some aircraft, turn back at 400agl is not only possible but provides comfortable margin. With others (most notably the Yak-52 and CJ6A) turn back is not possible from ANY altitude. (Turn-back to land downwind may be possible from some point after the beginning of the turn to crosswind and possibly in the turn to downwind in the CJ/YAK. I haven't practiced this ... yet.) (A stopped-prop helps immensely.)

 



Bottom line: it is worth checking out with any airplane you fly. And if you know the appropriate altitudes, you can put them in your take-off go/no-go list. Mine has two: abort point on the runway and turn back point/altitude for singles. For gliders they are the turn-back point (downwind landing), abbreviated pattern point (midfield turn to land without running off the end), and normal turn-back point (from which a normal pattern can be completed). 

 



In a twin you have to also include the point in the take-off where you have enough altitude and airspeed to safely cage the dead engine and proceed single engine. Failure to reach that point means engine failure is the same as engine failure in a single -- you are going down. Period. I refer to the section of take off from the time I pass my runway abort point to the safe altitude/airspeed to proceed single-engine as the "dead zone". 

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

 +1.916.877.5067 (USA)



   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:03 pm Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

While I have no experience with light twin  feathering systems I am sure feathering is available with a "dead" engine.   

 It most certainly is in the larger twins and  multi's.  Oil pressure is porvided by a totally seperate, electrically  driven, feathering pump.  Some installations even include a seperate  feathering oil supply.

  

 Whether the prop is windmilling or stopped it is  producing a whole lot of undesireable drag

  

 Walt

 [quote]   ---

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:17 pm Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What does caging the dead engine mean? If it's dead, you have lost the ability to Feather it haven't you? 



	




No. A dead engine that is producing zero power is still providing a load on the windmilling propeller. If it is windmilling, you can feather it. If it is NOT turning you can't feather it but then, if it is not windmilling, it is producing much less drag anyway. A stalled airfoil is producing much less drag than an airfoil that is producing lift near the critical AoA.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  Doubtful that is windmilling at takeoff speed.

	
 



Oh yes, it will windmill at takeoff speed! Try it in your Yak or CJ. Slow down to take-off speed and pull the throttle to idle. I betcha the prop keeps turning. If you aren't sure, turn the mags off for a couple of seconds. I promise you that the prop won't stop.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:53 am Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

One other point. I believe your runway abort point in a twin is called V1.



Bill



On Jun 27, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)persona.ca (wlannon(at)persona.ca)> wrote:



[quote]  While I have no experience with light twin  feathering systems I am sure feathering is available with a "dead" engine.   

 It most certainly is in the larger twins and  multi's.  Oil pressure is porvided by a totally seperate, electrically  driven, feathering pump.  Some installations even include a seperate  feathering oil supply.

  

 Whether the prop is windmilling or stopped it is  producing a whole lot of undesireable drag

  

 Walt

 [quote]   ---

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: Update on Doug and Kathleen Sapp

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 6:50 AM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   One other point. I believe your runway abort point in a twin is called V1.

	




It is is in turbine powered aircraft. The assumption of V1 is that from that point a successful take-off and climb is assured with a failed engine. This is not the case with reciprocating-engine-powered light twins which have the aforementioned "dead zone". The only way to achieve V1 in a light twin would be to hold it on the ground until well after normal rotation and climb speed, something that might exceed the normal ratings for the tires and landing gear. 

 



No, for a short period of time immediately following lift-off most light-twins have no multi-engine advantage. (There may be in the case of some aircraft with which I am not familiar or in the case of a very lightly loaded aircraft but those are special cases that need to be determined by experiment.) The only recourse is to close the throttle on the good engine and plan an off-airport landing.

 



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



   [quote][b]

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