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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:18 pm Post subject: Matco Brakes |
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I'm having a hell of a time curing a spongy brake condition. Recently, I replaced the Matco caliper assembly on my left main. The old one had developed a crack in the housing and was leaking fluid. After bleeding the system I couldn't seem to get the sponginess out of the brake pedal. Then, I tried rebuilding the MC-1 master cylinder (twice!) yet the sponginess remains. As far as I can determine, the system is air-free. Any suggestions?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
[quote][b]
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n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:33 pm Post subject: Matco Brakes |
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How are you bleeding the brakes? From a pressure pot up from the calipers? On the RV's, the best way I found is to do the above, remove the cylinders and pump them upright a few times and then upside down a few times, and repeat while filling. This should help get all the air out.
-Mike Kraus
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 30, 2011, at 4:15 PM, Marco Menezes <msm_9949(at)yahoo.com (msm_9949(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]I'm having a hell of a time curing a spongy brake condition. Recently, I replaced the Matco caliper assembly on my left main. The old one had developed a crack in the housing and was leaking fluid. After bleeding the system I couldn't seem to get the sponginess out of the brake pedal. Then, I tried rebuilding the MC-1 master cylinder (twice!) yet the sponginess remains. As far as I can determine, the system is air-free. Any suggestions?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
[b]
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Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: Matco Brakes |
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On Thu, June 30, 2011 1:15 pm, Marco Menezes wrote:
| Quote: | I'm having a hell of a time curing a spongy brake condition. Recently, I replaced the
Matco caliper assembly on my left main. The old one had developed a crack in the
housing and was leaking fluid. After bleeding the system I couldn't seem to get the
sponginess out of the brake pedal. Then, I tried rebuilding the MC-1 master cylinder
(twice!) yet the sponginess remains. As far as I can determine, the system is
air-free. Any suggestions?
|
Usually the tubing is so small that air bubbles move with the stream even if they go
up then down again. So, my guess is you've still got air in the wheel cylinders. I
mounted my calipers such that the wheel cylinders are at about a 45° angle. If your
bleeder is at a high point then you bleed from the master cylinder. If the bleeder is
at a low point you bleed from the wheel cylinder. That's the case with mine and I use
a break bleeder kit I got at NAPA. After filling the system best I could then I put
the suction end of the NAPA hand pump in the master cyliner and the pressure end at
the low point of the wheel cylinder then run the hand pump until no air bubbles appear
in the master cylinder reservoir. I have done the same thing in reverse on my Corvette
but used the brake pedal and master cylinder as a pump. In that case, I just watched
the clear plastic line until there were no bubbles. With that kit from NAPA it makes
it easy to bleed brakes by yourself because you don't have to have one person press
the brake pedal and the other open and close the bleeder and since the bled fluid is
returning to the master cylinder, you don't have to worry about it running out and
injecting more air into the system.
BTW, in my case with the Corvette I found out that occasionally on the brake upstroke,
air was getting sucked in at the calipers on both front brakes. I solved the problem
by disassembly then polishing the cylinders and pistons with 800 grit Emory cloth.
The reason I mentioned this is that even after doing a perfect job of bleeding, air
got into the calipers soon after. Probably don't have that problem with Mil-H-5606
because it isn't deliquescent like automotive brake fluid and therefore doesn't get a
corrosion so easily at the wheel cylinders.
In conclusion, you can't get the air out of wheel cylinder unless the bleed valve is
either at the absolute high point for top down bleeding or at the low point for bottom
up bleeding.
--
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
PAF Consulting Engineers
Office 425.440.9505
Cell 425.241.1618
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_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office |
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7suds(at)Chartermi.net
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: Matco Brakes |
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Marco,
I think the guys are heading you in the right direction, I agree that it is probably sir entrapment. I had difficulty with mine so I built a power bleeder out of an old electric submersible fuel pump. To bleed I remove the plug from the top of my reservoir and install a barbed fitting with a hose that runs to a jar with my fuel pump in it and enough brake fluid to cover the pump, from the fuel pump I run the hose and clamp on the open bleeder on one wheel, I have to bump the fuel pump on and off because it moves so much fluid, but as I do I reach in and stroke each pedal for the brakes, do the same on the other side. When your satisfied, remove the barbed fitting and reinstall the reservoir plug. Never need to worry about running out of fluid as you work the system since you are just pumping from the jar through the system and back to the jar.
Lloyd Cudnohufsky
Northern Mi.
Model 5 912UL IVO IFA
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 3:16 PM
To: Matronics.com
Subject: Matco Brakes
I'm having a hell of a time curing a spongy brake condition. Recently, I replaced the Matco caliper assembly on my left main. The old one had developed a crack in the housing and was leaking fluid. After bleeding the system I couldn't seem to get the sponginess out of the brake pedal. Then, I tried rebuilding the MC-1 master cylinder (twice!) yet the sponginess remains. As far as I can determine, the system is air-free. Any suggestions?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
012345678
[quote][b]
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:16 am Post subject: Re: Matco Brakes |
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[quote="msm_9949(at)yahoo.com"]I'm having a hell of a time curing a spongy brake condition. Recently, I replaced the Matco caliper assembly on my left main. The old one had developed a crack in the housing and was leaking fluid. After bleeding the system I couldn't seem to get the sponginess out of the brake pedal. Then, I tried rebuilding the MC-1 master cylinder (twice!) yet the sponginess remains. As far as I can determine, the system is air-free. Any suggestions?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
Marco -- all you should need is an oil can with pump-- and hose and Mil Spec fluid http://www.cfisher.com/aeroshell.html
1/4 " wrench fitting on bleeder on bottom of caliper . Crack it open and start pumping. you should watch near master cylinders at pedals for air bubbles in line coming up -- hopefully you see some and air gets pumped out. You might need a rag around pedal to catch oil when it leaks out -- you want to make sure all the air gets out.
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:39 am Post subject: Matco Brakes |
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Mike,
Yup. Pressure pot up through calipers. I've gone so far as to disassemble the MC, removing piston while filling, then reassembling "wet" to remove all air. Still spongy. Haven't tried your method tho.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
--- On Thu, 6/30/11, Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net>
Subject: Re: Matco Brakes
To: "kitfox-list(at)matronics.com" <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Thursday, June 30, 2011, 4:30 PM
How are you bleeding the brakes? From a pressure pot up from the calipers? On the RV's, the best way I found is to do the above, remove the cylinders and pump them upright a few times and then upside down a few times, and repeat while filling. This should help get all the air out.
-Mike Kraus
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 30, 2011, at 4:15 PM, Marco Menezes <msm_9949(at)yahoo.com (msm_9949(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I'm having a hell of a time curing a spongy brake condition. Recently, I replaced the Matco caliper assembly on my left main. The old one had developed a crack in the housing and was leaking fluid. After bleeding the system I couldn't seem to get the sponginess out of the brake pedal. Then, I tried rebuilding the MC-1 master cylinder (twice!) yet the sponginess remains. As far as I can determine, the system is air-free. Any suggestions?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
el=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[quote][b]
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kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:32 am Post subject: Matco Brakes |
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A $5 hand oil pump with neopreme tubing has worked fine for about 15 years. Same experience as everyone else; when you work on the brakes you introduce small air bubbles into the system that need to be flushed out, bottom to top, there is no other way.
John Kerr
820 hrs, Classic/912ul
Logan UT
From: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2011 4:16:08 AM
Subject: Re: Matco Brakes
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
[quote="msm_9949(at)yahoo.com"]I'm having a hell of a time curing a spongy brake condition. Recently, I replaced the Matco caliper assembly on my left main. The old one had developed a crack in the housing and was leaking fluid. After bleeding the system I couldn't seem to get the sponginess out of the brake pedal. Then, I tried rebuilding the MC-1 master cylinder (twice!) yet the sponginess remains. As far as I can determine, the system is air-free. Any suggestions?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
Marco -- all you should need is an oil can with pump-- and hose and Mil Spec fluid http://www.cfisher.com/aeroshell.html
1/4 " wrench fitting on bleeder on bottom of caliper . Crack it open and start pumping. you should watch near master cylinders at pedals for air bubbles in line coming up -- hopefully you see some and air gets pumped out. You might need a rag around pedal to catch oil when it leaks out -- you want to make sure all the air gets out.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
http://www.kitfoxflyer.com/
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matroni -Matt Dralle, List ==========
[quote][b]
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Pat Reilly
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: Matco Brakes |
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Marco, I use the exact same method as Dave. I have bleed my system from dry, low or near full. I have never had trouble filling or bleeding the system with this method.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuilt
Rockford, IL
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:16 AM, dave <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>
[quote="msm_9949(at)yahoo.com"]I'm having a hell of a time curing a spongy brake condition. Recently, I replaced the Matco caliper assembly on my left main. The old one had developed a crack in the housing and was leaking fluid. After bleeding the system I couldn't seem to get the sponginess out of the brake pedal. Then, I tried rebuilding the MC-1 master cylinder (twice!) yet the sponginess remains. As far as I can determine, the system is air-free. Any suggestions?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
> [b]
Marco -- all you should need is an oil can with pump-- and hose and Mil Spec fluid http://www.cfisher.com/aeroshell.html
1/4 " wrench fitting on bleeder on bottom of caliper . Crack it open and start pumping. you should watch near master cylinders at pedals for air bubbles in line coming up -- hopefully you see some and air gets pumped out. You might need a rag around pedal to catch oil when it leaks out -- you want to make sure all the air gets out.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
http://www.kitfoxflyer.com/
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344558#344558
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--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[quote][b]
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