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Frankd
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64
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 Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:20 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Had my first flight in my M3X today. For those who remember that day here is my experience.
Wind was calm and we were waiting for some low clouds (Fog) to burn off at Hollister, Ca. Decided to do some high speed taxi tests to help run-in the brakes and had three runs up to 35-40mph with good control. On the forth run added “Just a little more power” to see if I could get into ground effect but was fully ready to fly.. Sure enough, off she went up to about 20feet. Started to lower the nose to put it back on the runway but found I got a rather sudden few oscillations in pitch as I tried to get used to the elevator. Put in full power to gain altitude and went “up”. Found I had to hold “LOTS” of forward stick to keep it above 60 and continued to climb. Jabiru 2200 Engine ran fine.
Went to 1500 feet directly over the runway and varied the engine RPM. VERY heavy forward stick needed to maintain straight and level even with cruise RPM’s of 2500. CHT showed 380 Deg F so decided to land.
Eased back to 2000 RPM and started a decent. Still needed forward stick about 3inches forward from where the elevator was level with the Horz Stab. Stabilized any oscillations. Set up an approach but it seemed high about ½ way down the runway and so I did a circuit and lined up at the start of the runway. Eased off to about 1500 rpm, stick still pushing forward, 60 MPH, nice decent rate, came into ground effect and had a good landing about 1/3 down the runway.
A few things:-
1/ Thank God for 6000 foot runways, my plane is WAY out of trim. And having LOTS of runway allowed me to not over control at a critical time.
2/ Take some time in a flying kolb with a pilot if you can, I flew in a MarkIII the day before and it really helped (Thanks ChrisB).
3/ FLY the plane. In calm no-wind conditions for the first flight.
WHY SO MUCH DOWN ELEVATOR NEEDED?
a/ During my building I got an update to the plans that set the LE of the horizontal Stab just above centerline of the boom tube. The original plans called for the LE to be level with the TOP of the Boom tube.
B/ I always thought my wing incidence compared to the Horizontal Stab. was very high so will recheck the wing root attachment to make sure I did not miscalculate and drill incorrectly.
Does anyone have data about the angles of incidence between the Wing bottom, the Horzontal Stab and the engine thrust line for a MK3?
B/ My Weight and Balance may be off but I triple checked it – Time to do again. I calculated my CG was 16inches from the wing LE – Mid range.
Its good to have flown but better to have survived!
Will post Pics and video later.
FrankD
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Ralph B
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Frank, when you carry a passenger you won't need to hold forward stick.
Do you have a trim tab on the elevator?
If not, you need one. My Kolbra has a ground adjustable tab
with a motorized bungee trim on the stick. I adjust the elevator tab
for a heavy passenger and when I fly solo, I need more forward stick,
so the bungee trim pulls the stick forward with the flick of a switch.
If you plan to do more solo flying, you could adjust the elevator tab for
that and I could too, but the motorized bungee makes it easier. The
elevator trim tab is a course adjustment, and the bungee trim is a fine
adjustment.
Ralph
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Ralph B
Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
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Arksey(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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good for you...sounds like you did the correct thing on your lst flight...keep us posted on your future flights...you did a good job....safe flying...jim swan
Jim Swan Kolb Firestar ll, 503 Rotax , 6147 Wilcox Rd., Eaton Rapids, Mi 48827 ph 517-663-8488 GPS GPS FOR MY RUNWAY N 42 deg 28.581 W084deg 44.825
[quote][b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:37 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Attached is a picture of the tail incidence on a Mk IIIX I have in the shop right now. I think it's fair to say the incidence of the HS on your airplane is a couple of degrees lower (based on TLAR estimate that about .40" change at the leading edge is one degree). One thing you might look at before dealing with stabilizers is how your flaps and ailerons are rigged. If they have a bit of reflex to them you will get the same effect, i.e. stick forward required for level flight. If you have them rigged so that the bottom of the wing and the bottom of the flaps and ailerons are parallel, you could try a turn or two on the control rods to crank in a bit of camber. A little won't effect drag very much and might solve your problem.
If you find you need to move the brackets on the boom, I have some boom tubing that Travis was generous enough to send along to me at no charge so I could make patch plates for the airplane pictured (a Mark IIIC to X conversion). Least I can do is send along a piece if you want to make cover plates to hide the extra holes.
Rick Girard
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Frankd <frankd(at)foundrynet.com (frankd(at)foundrynet.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Frankd" <frankd(at)foundrynet.com (frankd(at)foundrynet.com)>
Had my first flight in my M3X today. For those who remember that day here is my experience.
Wind was calm and we were waiting for some low clouds (Fog) to burn off at Hollister, Ca. Decided to do some high speed taxi tests to help run-in the brakes and had three runs up to 35-40mph with good control. On the forth run added Just a little more power to see if I could get into ground effect but was fully ready to fly.. Sure enough, off she went up to about 20feet. Started to lower the nose to put it back on the runway but found I got a rather sudden few oscillations in pitch as I tried to get used to the elevator. Put in full power to gain altitude and went up. Found I had to hold LOTS of forward stick to keep it above 60 and continued to climb. Jabiru 2200 Engine ran fine.
Went to 1500 feet directly over the runway and varied the engine RPM. VERY heavy forward stick needed to maintain straight and level even with cruise RPMs of 2500. CHT showed 380 Deg F so decided to land.
Eased back to 2000 RPM and started a decent. Still needed forward stick about 3inches forward from where the elevator was level with the Horz Stab. Stabilized any oscillations. Set up an approach but it seemed high about way down the runway and so I did a circuit and lined up at the start of the runway. Eased off to about 1500 rpm, stick still pushing forward, 60 MPH, nice decent rate, came into ground effect and had a good landing about 1/3 down the runway.
A few things:-
1/ Thank God for 6000 foot runways, my plane is WAY out of trim. And having LOTS of runway allowed me to not over control at a critical time.
2/ Take some time in a flying kolb with a pilot if you can, I flew in a MarkIII the day before and it really helped (Thanks ChrisB).
3/ FLY the plane. In calm no-wind conditions for the first flight.
WHY SO MUCH DOWN ELEVATOR NEEDED?
a/ During my building I got an update to the plans that set the LE of the horizontal Stab just above centerline of the boom tube. The original plans called for the LE to be level with the TOP of the Boom tube.
B/ I always thought my wing incidence compared to the Horizontal Stab. was very high so will recheck the wing root attachment to make sure I did not miscalculate and drill incorrectly.
Does anyone have data about the angles of incidence between the Wing bottom, the Horzontal Stab and the engine thrust line for a MK3?
B/ My Weight and Balance may be off but I triple checked it Time to do again. I calculated my CG was 16inches from the wing LE Mid range.
Its good to have flown but better to have survived!
Will post Pics and video later.
FrankD
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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Frankd
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Hi Ralph,
thanks for this info. I do think that this is WAY out of trim and I should have to use back pressure in cruise flight not Fwd pressure. It was nowhere near neutral or close to normal control.
I'm going to call Travis tomorrow and see what they say about my set-up.
I believe I should have about 7deg positive wing incidence (LE higher) in level flight and the elevator and horizontal Stabilizer should be level at that time (or slightly Neg, LE lower than TE)
I also believe that the ideal engine thrust line is a few degrees down towards the nose, relative to level flight stance.
Would like feedback on others set-ups.
Tkx
FrankD
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ces308
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Hi Frank !
Great job ! How's it feel to be a test pilot ! Now analyzing everything that just happened ! One thing at a time now... and the plane looks great ! Isn't that Jaber sweet !
Keep us posted,
chris ambrose
M3X/Jabiru A-2200
N327CS
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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WHY SO MUCH DOWN ELEVATOR NEEDED?
a/ During my building I got an update to the plans that set the LE of the horizontal Stab just above centerline of the boom tube. The original plans called for the LE to be level with the TOP of the Boom tube.
| Quote: | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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in a super cub the trim handle raises and lowers the leading edge of the stabilizer,, if you lower the stabilizer leading edge it is adding more up trim.
you can change the flying position of the plane by changing the incidence of the wing,,,, if you increase the incidence of he wing, you need to increase the incidence of the stabilizer... and doing this would make the plane fly nose down.
if you need to push hard to fly level,,, the fix should be to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer..
boyd young
mkiii
[quote][b]
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ces308
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Boyd,
Yours sounds like mine....seee picture...
chris ambrose
M3X/Jab
N327CS
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Ralph B
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:55 am Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Frank, as I said earlier, when you carry a passenger there will be no need to push the stick forward.
For flying solo, adjust your trim tab up. This will push the elevator down in flight.
I think your stabilizer is in the proper position for flying solo and carrying a passenger.
Ralph
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Ralph B
Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours |
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:10 am Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Ralph, I got the impression he was pushing the stick with both feet.  He may need more than a trim tab.
I was lucky my first time up. Stick was neutral in pitch and left wing just a touch heavy. Good thing too,
I had never been in a Kolb before. Having unnatural stick forces on a first flight leads to sweaty palms.
I commend Frank on his excellent responses.
BB
On 15, Mar 2011, at 8:55 AM, Ralph B wrote:
| Quote: |
Frank, as I said earlier, when you carry a passenger there will be no need to push the stick forward.
For flying solo, adjust your trim tab up. This will push the elevator down in flight.
Ralph
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
1000 hours
24 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
3 years flying it
150 hrs
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:12 am Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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frankd,
You mentioned that your CHT was at 380F. As you probably know, the max CHT allowable at cruise is 356F and 392F during climb.
I noticed in your photo that you have what appear to be non-standard Jabiru cylinder cooling ducts. Even with the Jabiru designed ducts many builders have to test various size baffles to get the cooling right. On a non Jabiru designed duct, the chances of getting it right for first flight is remote. Getting the cooling right is essential for a trouble free Jabiru experience.
Why are you not using the Jabiru ducts? Strongly suggest you read and heed carefully Jabiru installation manual, if you have not done so.
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Buffalo, NY (9G0)
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Ralph B
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:30 am Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net | Quote: | Ralph, I got the impression he was pushing the stick with both feet. He may need more than a trim tab.
I was lucky my first time up. Stick was neutral in pitch and left wing just a touch heavy. Good thing too,
I had never been in a Kolb before. Having unnatural stick forces on a first flight leads to sweaty palms.
I commend Frank on his excellent responses.
BB
On 15, Mar 2011, at 8:55 AM, Ralph B wrote:
Frank, as I said earlier, when you carry a passenger there will be no need to push the stick forward.
For flying solo, adjust your trim tab up. This will push the elevator down in flight.
Ralph
|
Before making any adjustments to the stabilizer, I would say adjust the trim tab to the max first.
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Ralph B
Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours |
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Mike Welch
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:47 am Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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> Before making any adjustments to the stabilizer, I would say adjust the trim tab to the max first.
Ralph, everyone,
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone discussing the Kolbspring trim adjustment.
From what I recall, it is supposed to work quite well. Rather than sticking on a trim tab
onto the elevator, wouldn't he want to increase thetension on thespring?
Also, wouldn't it be a better idea next time to have someone follow him in flight....to
see how the elevator is positioned in level flight (after spring system is adjustedfor light
stick force)?
Mike Welch
MkIII
[quote][b]
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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I should have to use back pressure in cruise flight >>
Frank,
I need a little extra weight in the nose I know but I have full forward trim
in solo cruise. About 70mph at 2500on the Jabi..
Take off and landing with one stage flaps I trim about 75% up. Usually
approach about 50mph.
Good luck
Pat
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:37 am Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Ralph, everyone,
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone discussing the Kolb spring
trim adjustment.
| Quote: | From what I recall, it is supposed to work quite well. Rather than sticking
on a trim tab
|
onto the elevator, wouldn't he want to increase the tension on the spring?
Also, wouldn't it be a better idea next time to have someone follow him in
flight....to
see how the elevator is positioned in level flight (after spring system is
adjusted for light
stick force)?
Mike Welch
MkIII
mike
the spring adjustment is to add nose up trim... it will not assist with
down trim..
if he raises the leading edge of the stabilizer, that will eliminate the
need
for pushing forward on the stick. if someone did some experiments with the
leading
edge of the stabilizer,,, one could have one position for solo, no trim
required.
and another position for two people on board, and still no trim required,
but you would
have to change the position of the horizontal leading edge if you changed
to have a passenger or not. if you trim the leading edge of the
stabilizer for no trim on solo.
then you can add back pressure with the spring trim system for dual flight.
no elevator trim tab required.
boyd young
mkiii
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:03 am Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Boyd, Kolb has a multi hole bracket for the horizontal stab that does just that. See the picture I posted. This bracket allows incidence change of appox 3 degrees in 1 1/2 degree increments.
Rick
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 9:25 AM, b young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com (byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "b young" <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com (byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com)>
Ralph, everyone,
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone discussing the Kolb spring trim adjustment.
| Quote: | >From what I recall, it is supposed to work quite well. Rather than sticking
|
on a trim tab
onto the elevator, wouldn't he want to increase the tension on the spring?
Also, wouldn't it be a better idea next time to have someone follow him in flight....to
see how the elevator is positioned in level flight (after spring system is adjusted for light
stick force)?
Mike Welch
MkIII
mike
the spring adjustment is to add nose up trim... it will not assist with down trim..
if he raises the leading edge of the stabilizer, that will eliminate the need
for pushing forward on the stick. if someone did some experiments with the leading
edge of the stabilizer,,, one could have one position for solo, no trim required.
and another position for two people on board, and still no trim required, but you would
have to change the position of the horizontal leading edge if you changed
to have a passenger or not. if you trim the leading edge of the stabilizer for no trim on solo.
then you can add back pressure with the spring trim system for dual flight. no elevator trim tab required.
boyd young
mkiii
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:42 am Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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if someone did some experiments with the
leading
edge of the stabilizer,,, one could have one position for solo, no trim
required.
and another position for two people on board, and still no trim required,
but you would
have to change the position of the horizontal leading edge if you changed
to have a passenger or not.
boyd young
mkiii
Boyd Y/Gang:
February 1991, I was lucky to fly off most of the 40 hour test time on the
original Kolb MKIII (long before there was such a thing as a MKIIIc or a
MKIIIx). I knew nose down pitch was a problem, primarily because of the
high thrust pusher configuration of the Kolb, nothing more than a long lever
trying to push the nose of the aircraft down when under power.
While Brother Jim and I were fabricating the fuselage on my MKIII at Kolb,
Jim designed and fabricated adjustable horizontal stabilizer leading edge
mounts. We decided on three positions. During initial testing of my mkIII
the middle position seemed to be the "sweet spot", where the aircraft was
most comfortable to fly at cruise power. Some years later, in an attempt to
squeeze another mph or two out of the little airplane, I played around with
different adjustments, but always came back to the center position. The top
and bottom position would cause the aircraft to feel as though I was trying
to balance on a ball. It wanted to roll off fore or aft, but never settle
down to the cruise attitude.
With no power, gliding, pitch trim in the neutral position, my mkIII flies
nearly hands off. But, when power is brought up, it is necessary to add
nose up pitch. When flying an adult passenger, I must use max nose up pitch
trim. It is the nature of the beast.
A screw jack set up like a J3 Cub would be nice, but that would have
required a complex modification to the mkIII.
I've got some photos of our set up. If I can find them, I will post them.
This is the only one I could find. Should give you an idea of where I fly
the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizers.
john h - Getting ready for Sun and Fun.
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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John Hauck
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hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:45 am Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Strange. Picked up the info and not the photo. I'll try again.
john h
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:48 am Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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Not doing something right. ;-(
john h
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MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:36 am Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D |
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John, came through here the first time.
BB
On 15, Mar 2011, at 1:48 PM, John Hauck wrote:
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