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Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

Hi folks -



On Tuesday, July 19, four "fat ultralights" (all registered E-LSAs) will be leaving Sandy, Oregon to fly to Oshkosh for EAA AirVenture. We all have 2-cycle engines and plan to fly IFR. (I follow roads.) 



Here is the route we're thinking about taking. 

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=212033171749363263482.0004a3349abce159efad6&msa=0



If any of you have live along or have flown portions of this route, we'd appreciate hearing  your comments and suggestions. Checking out sectionals and Google Earth goes just so far - we'd love to hear from about better possibilities, not-to-be-missed airports and sights, etc.



Thanks for any info you're willing to share.



Arty Trost

Sandy,  Oregon



www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm

 

 "Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                       Helen Keller

 

 "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death." [quote][b]

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

I live right on I-90 in Minnesota, aircraft of all shapes & sizes fly this 'IFR' 

I-90 corridor,it has many airports every 50 miles. Sadly in Minnesota liability issues prevents me from inviting you to stay & camp at my 'private' strip.

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Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sadly in Minnesota liability issues prevents me from inviting you to stay & camp at my 'private' strip. 	




Ok, I'll be the first.



Dennis,



Regarding your photo selection, are you aware Arty Trost is a female pilot? How about a little respect?

_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:34 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

Hi Dennis,



<<Sadly in Minnesota liability issues prevents me from inviting you to stay 

& camp at my 'private' strip.  >>



Good grief. Things are not quite as bad as that in the UK yet.  In fact 

there is a push developing even at governmental level to stop this sort of 

stupidity. Curtailing no win ,no fee operations and ambulance chasers. Our 

main government culprit the Health and Safety Department head came out this 

week and said that she was tired of organisations imposing all sorts of 

regulations on health and safety grounds when the Department has nothing to 

do with it. It is just councils and other bodies imposing unpopular rules 

entirely on their own bat . Schools making kids playing `conkers` wear eye 

shields, officials turning people off a grass mound at Wimbledon last week 

because` the grass was wet and someone might slip. My local Council stopped 

a shopkeeper displaying his goods on the sidewalk, which he has done for 

about 40 years , in case someone walked into it and hurt themselves. You 

couldn`t make it up.

Perhaps some sanity is returning but don`t hold your breath.



Cheers



Pat

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:52 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

"The first thig we have to do is kill all the lawyers.  Then there won't be anyone around to tell us that what we are doing is wrong."

  

 do not archive



--- On Fri, 7/8/11, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, July 8, 2011, 2:30 PM



 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>



Hi Dennis,



<<Sadly in Minnesota liability issues prevents me from inviting you to stay & camp at my 'private' strip.  >>



Good grief. Things are not quite as bad as that in the UK yet.  In fact there is a push developing even at governmental level to stop this sort of stupidity. Curtailing no win ,no fee operations and ambulance chasers. Our main government culprit the Health and Safety Department head came out this week and said that she was tired of organisations imposing all sorts of regulations on health and safety grounds when the Department has nothing to do with it. It is just councils and other bodies imposing unpopular rules entirely on their own bat . Schools making kids playing  `conkers` wear eye shields, officials turning people off a grass mound at Wimbledon last week because` the grass was wet and someone might slip. My local Council stopped a shopkeeper displaying his goods on the sidewalk, which he has done for about 40 years , in case someone walked into it and hurt themselves. You couldn`t make it up.

Perhaps some sanity is returning bef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" sp;--> http://f=             - List Contributionsp;                     &bsp;--> 



	
 [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:23 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

"The first thig we have to do is kill all the lawyers>>

  

 Didn`t  one of Shakespeare's characters say  that?

  

 Even in his day they were a plague.

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

You should look at Minnesota's recreational liability statute... most likely it, like most other states' status, protects you from liability as long as you don't charge for the use of your land.

 

 -Dana



Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net> wrote:[quote]  Search  [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:45 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

I always liked his quotes.  A little more suitable for the List is, "They are all insane but thee and me, and I have my doubts about thee."

  

 do not archive



--- On Fri, 7/8/11, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, July 8, 2011, 3:19 PM



     "The first thig we have to do is kill all the lawyers>>

  

 Didn`t  one of Shakespeare's characters say that?

  

 Even in his day they were a plague.

  

 Pat

 	  Quote: 	
		  



get=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com

blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	
 [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:48 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

Vermont has a recreational liability release.  If your land is open to the public, no liability.  if it's posted, it's up to you to enforce it.  I leave mine open, and if I chose to get liability insurance it's only an additional $5 a year on my homeowner's policy.

  

 do not archive



--- On Fri, 7/8/11, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, July 8, 2011, 3:38 PM



 You should look at Minnesota's recreational liability statute... most likely it, like most other states' status, protects you from liability as long as you don't charge for the use of your land.



-Dana



 Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  Search  	  Quote: 	
		  



get=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com

blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




	
 [quote][b]

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

There is no such thing as 'liability release' in Minnesota. If I give consent for a guest pilot to land on my private strip....friend crashes and dies. The life insurance company pays the benefactor and insurance company goes after me to reclaim their losses. Even if friend has signed an 'liability release'  agreement not to sue. Which by the way is not legal in Minnesota.



Regarding photo;  I have "an indelicate sense of humor".  You'll have to toughen up a bit.

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:46 pm Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

Never mind the photo, I was wondering why if you did not  intend to offer any help to Arty, did you even bother to reply to her request  for friendly places to stop?

 Larry

  

  

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,  which includes my email address.

 [quote]   ---

_________________
do not archive

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:52 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

and insurance company goes after me to reclaim their losses>>

  

 This is unreal, and fascinating.  Surely for  the insurers to proceed against you they must prove that you are at fault. You  of course have `duty of care` and must have taken all `reasonable` steps to  ensure safety. but beyond that?? A smart lawyer will of course make a case about  what is `reasonable` Having a fire truck standing by if you have 20 planes a day  may be `reasonable. If you have 2 planes a week it probably is not.

 If a visiting pilot rolls his plane into a ball  through incorrect handling how can you be at fault?

  

 Bemused

  

 Pat

  

   [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:37 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

Not a "liability release"... like every state in the US, Minnesota law protects you from liability:



 <http://www.americanwhitewater.org/resources/repository/Minnesota_Recreational_Use_Statute.htm>



 -Dana



 At 11:41 PM 7/8/2011, Dennis Thate wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Thate" <retroman(at)frontier.com>



 There is no such thing as 'liability release' in Minnesota. If I give consent for a guest pilot to land on my private strip....friend crashes and dies. The life insurance company pays the benefactor and insurance company goes after me to reclaim their losses. Even if friend has signed an 'liability release'  agreement not to sue. Which by the way is not legal in Minnesota.



 Regarding photo;  I have "an indelicate sense of humor".  You'll have to toughen up a bit.   [Wink]



 --------

 Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society.  The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute.  ~Gil Stern



 

 Faith is believing what you know ain't so - Mark Twain



 



 

 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345521#345521



 



 



 



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 --

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    [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:53 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

Dana,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Hopefully, this will clear up some misunderstandings. 

Of course, nothing prevents a lawyer from filing a suit but state statutes like this provide an excellent basis for a defense. The best defense is poverty:-).   No money bags, no motive for suit. I am thusly suit-proof!



Thom

(sent from iPhone 4)

On Jul 9, 2011, at 6:27 AM, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:



[quote]Not a "liability release"... like every state in the US, Minnesota law protects you from liability:



 <http://www.americanwhitewater.org/resources/repository/Minnesota_Recreational_Use_Statute.htm>



 -Dana



 At 11:41 PM 7/8/2011, Dennis Thate wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Thate" <retroman(at)frontier.com (retroman(at)frontier.com)>



 There is no such thing as 'liability release' in Minnesota. If I give consent for a guest pilot to land on my private strip....friend crashes and dies. The life insurance company pays the benefactor and insurance company goes after me to reclaim their losses. Even if friend has signed an 'liability release'  agreement not to sue. Which by the way is not legal in Minnesota.



 Regarding photo;  I have "an indelicate sense of humor".  You'll have to toughen up a bit.   [Wink]



 --------

 Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society.  The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute.  ~Gil Stern



 

 Faith is believing what you know ain't so - Mark Twain



 



 

 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345521#345521



 



 



 



 Email Forum -

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 http://forums.matronics.com

 - List Contribution Web Site -

 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 --

 Always keep clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark.

     	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	


[b]

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

[quote="lcottrell"]Never mind the photo, I was wondering why if you did not  intend to offer any help to Arty, did you even bother to reply to her request  for friendly places to stop?

 Larry

  

  

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,  which includes my email address.

  	  Quote: 	
		     --- 	




Your Point is Pointless. Contribute to forum or lurk

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

My point is simply this, I spend tons of money and many hours of hard work building a private strip that I would love to share with nice people like Arty and her group en route to Oshkosh. 



But due to our litigant nature of society I can't ............. It's like people who want to impose their value system on others on this forum. .....I say live and let live ! 



  Don't preach ! Don't Sue !   But above all don't be stupid !

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Last edited by Dennis Thate on Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:17 am; edited 1 time in total

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

PatUnfortunately in the US a signed release (called a 'Hold-Harmless' Release) isn't worth a lot. Courts throw them out all the time. Insurance co's, and survivors, will always go after the 'deepest pockets' they can find -- i.e, the richest person/firm involved. Helluva note. Still a good idea to get a Release; indicates at least good intentions. 

My country is going down the tubes & IMHO too many irresponsible lawyers are  a main cause. 

Remember when Thurmon Munson (sp?) killed himself in a jet he'd just bought? Cessna had to pay some $20million -- and it wasn't the plane's fault!!

Don't get me started! I think we have so many lawyers they all conspire to keep each other employed. And the courts support grossly unfair outcomes.

Bah.Got room for a disgruntled Yank in Britain?

Fair winds,

Russ

 

On Jul 9, 2011, at 4:50 AM, Pat Ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  and insurance company goes after me to reclaim their losses>>

 

This is unreal, and fascinating.  Surely for the insurers to proceed against you they must prove that you are at fault. You of course have `duty of care` and must have taken all `reasonable` steps to ensure safety. but beyond that?? A smart lawyer will of course make a case about what is `reasonable` Having a fire truck standing by if you have 20 planes a day may be `reasonable. If you have 2 planes a week it probably is not.

If a visiting pilot rolls his plane into a ball through incorrect handling how can you be at fault?

 

Bemused

 

Pat

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

[quote="Dana"]Not a "liability release"... like every state in the US, Minnesota law protects you from liability:



 <url>



 -Dana



 At 11:41 PM 7/8/2011, Dennis Thate wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Thate" <retroman>

***********

Dana...... if you believe this !   I have some blue sky I would like to sell you.   .   



I once worked for a company x who hired independent trucker z to haul their freight to another state. Trucker z was involved in a fatality in that state. Trucker z had limited liability so my company x was sued and had to pay.    Called 'The Deeper Pocket Syndrome'.   



*************



 

 There is no such thing as 'liability release' in Minnesota. If I give consent for a guest pilot to land on my private strip....friend crashes and dies. The life insurance company pays the benefactor and insurance company goes after me to reclaim their losses. Even if friend has signed an 'liability release'  agreement not to sue. Which by the way is not legal in Minnesota.



 Regarding photo;  I have "an indelicate sense of humor".  You'll have to toughen up a bit.   [Wink]



 --------

 Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society.  The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute.  ~Gil Stern



 

 Faith is believing what you know ain't so - Mark Twain



 



 

 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345521#345521



 



 



 



 Email Forum -

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 http://forums.matronics.com

 - List Contribution Web Site -

 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 --

 Always keep clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark.

     	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:21 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

Hi Russ

 <<in the US a signed release (called a 'Hold-Harmless' Release) isn't  worth a lot>>

  

 I have never heard of this sort of informal agreement except in the case of  taking a passenger for a flight. We had them in the gliding club when I first  started flying in 1964.  We always called it the `Blood chit` and it just  says `flying is dangerous if anything happens it aint my fault`

 I still get anyone that I fly sign a chit. I don`t think that it has ever  been seriously challenged in Court but I suspect that it wouldn`t hold water..  Thank heaven that we are not quite as litigious as you. YET.

 The other day I spoke to a guy who was the CFI when I started gliding  and he asked me had I ever realised, back then, that I could get  killed . I said `Of course, but I never took it seriously and certainly no  one ever made a song and dance about it.  He says that now they have to sit  a prospective member down and explain to him that he could get hurt, perhaps  seriously, and get him to sign that he has had the dangers pointed out to him  before he joined.  .

 Glory be. What ever happened?  Health and Safety would never allow  Wilbur to go messing about with that flying machine today.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:26 am Post subject: Looking for info about route to Oshkosh

<<But due to our litigant nature of society I can't .... >>



The sad part is that it would only take one judge to stand up and say "There 

is no case to answer, no one is at fault, shit happens. The costs are 

against the complainant"  and the whole edifice would collapse like a pack 

of cards.



Some hope



Pat

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