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Speedy11(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: Max wind speed limit |
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No.
Stan Sutterfield
Okay, let me expand on my response.
Who is to decide what the proposed max wind speed limit is? And how is the speed determined? Does one choose the touchdown speed (say 60 KIAS) as the max wind speed limit since that wind speed would result in a hover landing (assuming one is landing into the wind)?
And who, on the scene, determines that the max wind speed limit has been reached? The tower? How about at an uncontrolled airport? The AWOS?
I suggest that the pilot in the airplane determines the max wind speed limit for him/herself. Each pilot knows his own skill, total experience, recent experience, time in type, and immediate weather conditions. Each pilot should decide for himself if landing in given conditions is suitable or not. Having a max wind speed number determined by "someone" beyond which pilots may not land is not appropriate. I have landed a taildragger in 75 knot headwinds and a C-172 in 25 knot crosswinds. Landing is not the difficult part - it is the taxiing. Taxiing a C-172 in 25 knot winds is very challenging and requires careful planning. Taxiing a tail wheel aircraft in calm conditions is challenging and requires careful planning - winds can compound the problem.
I suggest that we already have too much "outside the cockpit" interference now. Adding another restriction to bring everyone to the lowest common denominator is not the solution. Thinking about and planning for and practicing for the situation is the solution.
It sounds as if Matt did nothing wrong during his landing other than trying to make an early turnoff. A max wind speed limit would not have reduced the likelihood of his bent airplane.
I appreciate that Matt has generously shared his situation with us. It allows us all to learn without having to experience the same outcome. I'm not sure if I'd have been so generous.
Okay, rant over - flame suit on. : ) The answer is still no.
In a message dated 7/9/2011 3:11:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rv8-list(at)matronics.com writes:
| Quote: | In addition to a maximum crosswind component
(especially for tail draggers), should we have a simple maximum wind speed limit?
... or maybe a maximum gust component (e.g., Vgust - Vsteady)? |
[quote][b]
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aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:17 am Post subject: Max wind speed limit |
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Well said, Stan.
Glen Matejcek
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wpaulin(at)usa.net
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:28 am Post subject: Max wind speed limit |
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I meant self imposed limits ... for self and the AC being flown.
The last thing I would want on earth is another government involvement in anything. The FAA is already pricing flying out of most folks reach, with a LOT less benefit created than their astronomical, bureaucratic cost.
BIll
*********************************
William L. Paulin, Ph.D.
PaulinNeal Associates
1575 South Forest Drive
Prescott, AZ 86303
Cell +1 858 722 2905
Office +1 760 720 2905
Europe +358 40 720 4047
wpaulin(at)paulinneal.com (wpaulin(at)paulinneal.com)
On Jul 9, 2011, at 9:17 PM, Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com) wrote:
No.
Stan Sutterfield
Okay, let me expand on my response.
Who is to decide what the proposed max wind speed limit is? And how is the speed determined? Does one choose the touchdown speed (say 60 KIAS) as the max wind speed limit since that wind speed would result in a hover landing (assuming one is landing into the wind)?
And who, on the scene, determines that the max wind speed limit has been reached? The tower? How about at an uncontrolled airport? The AWOS?
I suggest that the pilot in the airplane determines the max wind speed limit for him/herself. Each pilot knows his own skill, total experience, recent experience, time in type, and immediate weather conditions. Each pilot should decide for himself if landing in given conditions is suitable or not. Having a max wind speed number determined by "someone" beyond which pilots may not land is not appropriate. I have landed a taildragger in 75 knot headwinds and a C-172 in 25 knot crosswinds. Landing is not the difficult part - it is the taxiing. Taxiing a C-172 in 25 knot winds is very challenging and requires careful planning. Taxiing a tail wheel aircraft in calm conditions is challenging and requires careful planning - winds can compound the problem.
I suggest that we already have too much "outside the cockpit" interference now. Adding another restriction to bring everyone to the lowest common denominator is not the solution. Thinking about and planning for and practicing for the situation is the solution.
It sounds as if Matt did nothing wrong during his landing other than trying to make an early turnoff. A max wind speed limit would not have reduced the likelihood of his bent airplane.
I appreciate that Matt has generously shared his situation with us. It allows us all to learn without having to experience the same outcome. I'm not sure if I'd have been so generous.
Okay, rant over - flame suit on. : ) The answer is still no.
In a message dated 7/9/2011 3:11:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rv8-list(at)matronics.com (rv8-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
| Quote: | In addition to a maximum crosswind component
(especially for tail draggers), should we have a simple maximum wind speed limit?
... or maybe a maximum gust component (e.g., Vgust - Vsteady)? |
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List |
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geezer02(at)windstream.ne
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:56 am Post subject: Max wind speed limit |
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Well put and thanks Stan
Geezer2 RV8 N18LD
---- Speedy11(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
No.
Stan Sutterfield
Okay, let me expand on my response.
Who is to decide what the proposed max wind speed limit is? And how is
the speed determined? Does one choose the touchdown speed (say 60 KIAS) as
the max wind speed limit since that wind speed would result in a hover
landing (assuming one is landing into the wind)?
And who, on the scene, determines that the max wind speed limit has been
reached? The tower? How about at an uncontrolled airport? The AWOS?
I suggest that the pilot in the airplane determines the max wind speed
limit for him/herself. Each pilot knows his own skill, total experience,
recent experience, time in type, and immediate weather conditions. Each pilot
should decide for himself if landing in given conditions is suitable or
not. Having a max wind speed number determined by "someone" beyond which
pilots may not land is not appropriate. I have landed a taildragger in 75 knot
headwinds and a C-172 in 25 knot crosswinds. Landing is not the difficult
part - it is the taxiing. Taxiing a C-172 in 25 knot winds is very
challenging and requires careful planning. Taxiing a tail wheel aircraft in calm
conditions is challenging and requires careful planning - winds can
compound the problem.
I suggest that we already have too much "outside the cockpit" interference
now. Adding another restriction to bring everyone to the lowest common
denominator is not the solution. Thinking about and planning for and
practicing for the situation is the solution.
It sounds as if Matt did nothing wrong during his landing other than trying
to make an early turnoff. A max wind speed limit would not have reduced
the likelihood of his bent airplane.
I appreciate that Matt has generously shared his situation with us. It
allows us all to learn without having to experience the same outcome. I'm
not sure if I'd have been so generous.
Okay, rant over - flame suit on. : ) The answer is still no.
In a message dated 7/9/2011 3:11:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rv8-list(at)matronics.com writes:
In addition to a maximum crosswind component
(especially for tail draggers), should we have a simple maximum wind speed
limit?
... or maybe a maximum gust component (e.g., Vgust - Vsteady)?
|
| | - The Matronics RV8-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List |
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Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: Max wind speed limit |
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Dr. Paulin,
Please accept my apology. I misread your comment.
I'd like to think that each pilot does think about his experience level and flying time in order to create his own self imposed limits. I believe that an even more important consideration is how much exposure the pilot has experienced with unusual or demanding situations. I've found that I rarely fully consider all the possible outcomes and consequences of a given situation. If I survive the situation without damaging anything, then I do my own NTSB to analyze what else I should have considered and how I can make a better decision the next time (note that the next decision could be the same as the first one - except that additional knowledge makes it a more learned decision).
I'd like to remark about your statement "The FAA is already pricing flying out of most folks reach..." I do agree with you that flying has become terribly expensive and out of reach of most Americans. The FAA has contributed heavily to the problem without commensurate benefits. However, I've owned ten single engine aircraft over the years. I remember selling my 1962 C-172 in 1976 because the cost of flying was "out of control." The cost of Av gas had reached 76 cents per gallon and people could not afford such prices!!! And woe was us because the government was going to force us to all use LL fuel and all of our engines were going to die and cost us millions.
Now we are facing the end of LL fuel and many journalists are crying gloom and doom again.
It seems to me that people who love flying airplanes will find a way - I know I will.
One disturbing trend though, is that of airspace restricted from GA operations. The massive use of TFRs is out of control and AOPA seems to welcome the trend - instead of fighting as they should. Have you tried to navigate to DCA lately? You, as an American citizen, cannot use DCA as a navigation point. And it is restricted only for the convenience of the TSA.
There is even a TFR over Disney World!! That is simply political cronyism. Pilots should NOT have to worry about an interception or a violation for flying over Disney World at 1500' AGL.
Okay - this rant is over, too. I get fired up too easily, I guess.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
PS - I've dropped my AOPA membership because they no longer stand for what is right. There - that should get some rounds coming my way. : )
In a message dated 7/11/2011 3:03:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rv8-list(at)matronics.com writes:
| Quote: | I meant self imposed limits ... for self and the AC being flown.
The last thing I would want on earth is another government involvement
in anything. The FAA is already pricing flying out of most folks reach,
with a LOT less benefit created than their astronomical, bureaucratic
cost.
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV8-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List |
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wpaulin(at)usa.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:00 am Post subject: Max wind speed limit |
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I worked for Boeing in the 60s & 70s (aero engineer) and believe that I remember a time when the FAA was a champion for the industry. Not so any more it seems. While there are good guys there, it is mainly a rigid, controlling bureaucracy, it seems ... remember what they did to Bob Hoover? A friend of mine who built his aviation business into a $700 m company was forced to dispose of it by the FAA without due process, etc. for the same sort of reason as Hoover .. someone in the agency seemed to get on his case ... as best we can tell.
But the TSA tops them all. About a month ago, my wife and I were flying out of PHX and the TSA inspection line suddenly stopped. They were shutting ALL lines down but one and feeding all the folks in front of us through the one remaining open. Then, as our line swelled to many over 100 folks, the TSA supervisor held a briefing session for his staff right in front of us for another 20 minutes or so. All in all, it took nearly an hour to get through, we met at least 5 folks who missed their flight (on our flight alone) and all they could say was "did you arrive 2 1/2 hours early?"
I fly GA in Europe a bit, and it is getting worse here like there, it seems. I think we are often better off depending upon our selves than with the FAA's help ... on all except basic standards and maintenance rules. Bureaucracies always seem to go from the necessary helping (why they were born) to the extreme over control and hurting.
Bill
On Jul 11, 2011, at 11:15 PM, Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com) wrote:
Dr. Paulin,
Please accept my apology. I misread your comment.
I'd like to think that each pilot does think about his experience level and flying time in order to create his own self imposed limits. I believe that an even more important consideration is how much exposure the pilot has experienced with unusual or demanding situations. I've found that I rarely fully consider all the possible outcomes and consequences of a given situation. If I survive the situation without damaging anything, then I do my own NTSB to analyze what else I should have considered and how I can make a better decision the next time (note that the next decision could be the same as the first one - except that additional knowledge makes it a more learned decision).
I'd like to remark about your statement "The FAA is already pricing flying out of most folks reach..." I do agree with you that flying has become terribly expensive and out of reach of most Americans. The FAA has contributed heavily to the problem without commensurate benefits. However, I've owned ten single engine aircraft over the years. I remember selling my 1962 C-172 in 1976 because the cost of flying was "out of control." The cost of Av gas had reached 76 cents per gallon and people could not afford such prices!!! And woe was us because the government was going to force us to all use LL fuel and all of our engines were going to die and cost us millions.
Now we are facing the end of LL fuel and many journalists are crying gloom and doom again.
It seems to me that people who love flying airplanes will find a way - I know I will.
One disturbing trend though, is that of airspace restricted from GA operations. The massive use of TFRs is out of control and AOPA seems to welcome the trend - instead of fighting as they should. Have you tried to navigate to DCA lately? You, as an American citizen, cannot use DCA as a navigation point. And it is restricted only for the convenience of the TSA.
There is even a TFR over Disney World!! That is simply political cronyism. Pilots should NOT have to worry about an interception or a violation for flying over Disney World at 1500' AGL.
Okay - this rant is over, too. I get fired up too easily, I guess.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
PS - I've dropped my AOPA membership because they no longer stand for what is right. There - that should get some rounds coming my way. : )
In a message dated 7/11/2011 3:03:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rv8-list(at)matronics.com (rv8-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
| Quote: | I meant self imposed limits ... for self and the AC being flown.
The last thing I would want on earth is another government involvement
in anything. The FAA is already pricing flying out of most folks reach,
with a LOT less benefit created than their astronomical, bureaucratic
cost.
|
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV8-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List |
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