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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:42 am Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

See:



http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/SUPERGT/3384/

        Bob . . .

                    ////

                   (o o)

    ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========

    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   >

    < show me where I'm wrong.      >

    =================================

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:58 am Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

Nice landing, and a very good demonstration of excellent pilot skills!  

   

The only thing I don’t really understand is why you (native English speakers) call this situation a “Dead Stick” landing, when this is everything but a dead stick. On the contrary, this is a very “Alive stick” situation….   

What is really dead is the power source!  

   

Carlos Trigo  

   

   

[quote] --

rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

Hi Carlos,

     The expression precedes the jet engine by many years. The "stick"     was the propeller (most likely wood at that time), dead when engine     (power source) stops.

     Regards, Rich

     

     On 7/15/2011 2:55 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:     [quote]                                st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }  <![endif]-->                               

Nice landing, and a very good demonstration                 of excellent pilot skills!           

            

The only thing I don’t really understand                 is why you (native English speakers) call this situation                 a “Dead Stick”                 landing, when this is everything but a dead stick. On                 the contrary, this is a                 very “Alive stick” situation….            

What is really dead is the power source!           

            

Carlos Trigo           

            

            

 	  Quote: 	
		                 -----Original               Message-----           

               From:               owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)               [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list ([email]owner-aeroelectric-list[/email])-           

               server(at)matronics.com (server(at)matronics.com)] On               Behalf Of Robert L.               Nuckolls, III           

               Sent: sexta-feira, 15 de               Julho de 2011 18:40           

               To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)           

               Subject:               It's nice when the               center holds . . .           

                          

                 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.                 Nuckolls, III"           

                 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>           

                          

                 See:           

                          

                 http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/SUPERGT/3384/           

                          

                          

                         Bob . . .           

                                     ////           

                                    (o                 o)         

          	  Quote: 	
		  
	


	
       [b]

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

The expression precedes the jet engine by many years. The

"stick" was the propeller (most likely wood at that time), dead when engine

(power source) stops.

		



				I did not know this origin.  Guess you can

always learn something here on the "Lectric List"



				Roger

winmail.dat

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Download

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Downloaded:

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henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

Richard Dudley is correct, Roger.  Here is the Wiki explanation:

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadstick_landing

 

Lesson learned: as old as we are, we still don't know everything.  Thank you, Richard.

Carlos, I bet you have similar sayings in your country.

Henador Titzoff



From: ROGER &  JEAN CURTIS  <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 3:55 PM

Subject: RE: It's nice when the center holds . . .

        The expression precedes the jet engine by many years. The

"stick" was the propeller (most likely wood at that time), dead when engine

(power source) stops.

        



                I did not know this origin.  Guess you can

always learn something here on the "Lectric List"



                Roger

         

         

        

 [quote][b]

gpabruce(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		  

The only thing I don’t really understand is why you (native English speakers) call this situation a “Dead Stick” landing, when this is everything but a dead stick. On the contrary, this is a very “Alive stick” situation…. 



What is really dead is the power source!

	




Excellent observation . . . .  the question is, shall we go back and change all the references using the "dead stick" phrase from all the books references and logs or shall we allow you to get over it and accept it. One vs. zillions    



As I recall in a my old conversations with the Wright Bothers it originally meant "you are close to being dead if you don't use the stick to save your ass". I remember asking that very same question to Orville and Wilbur while sitting around their potbellied stove as if it was yesterday. They reiterated that "dead" had nothing to do with the engine but more about the pilot.   

 



So if you were them, what phrase would you like to use if we were to correct the whole 100 plus years of aviation history and all log books to reflect your choice of phrases?  "Alive stick"? 

 



This reminds me of the prison story where the new guy comes in and hears  "257" and everyone laughs, then "522" and everyone laughs. He questions what is going on and his cell mate says, "we have told these jokes so many times we just numbered them to save time".  The new guy says "let me try one . . .  257!" but nobody laughed . . . then "522" and once again nobody laughed . . .  he asked his cell mate "what gives?"

 The cell mate said, "some people can tell a joke and some can't!"

You can stick with "Alive stick" and see how it works for you however removing the word "dead" from your thoughts may not be as healthy at that particular time. . . please let us know how it works for you.  You could just yell out "dead" and forget the stick if that confuses you. That way the "dead" will give you some indication of what happens if you don't move the stick in the proper, timely sequence.    

 



Don't take it personal, I'm just having fun with you . . .  Where are you from?

Bruce



On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:

 [quote]               

Nice landing, and a very good demonstration of excellent pilot skills!  

   

The only thing I don’t really understand is why you (native English speakers) call this situation a “Dead Stick” landing, when this is everything but a dead stick. On the contrary, this is a very “Alive stick” situation….   

What is really dead is the power source!  

   

Carlos Trigo  

   

   

[quote] --

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:54 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		   

  What is really dead is the power source! 	
 

    The last few words of the pilot suggested something I'd

    not heard before. He talked about a 'hydrazine' hazard

    around his aircraft as he was talking with locals at

    his airport of destination. There was also a reference

    to an "EPU" . . . 'possible emergency power unit'.



    Hydrazine and sulfuric acid combine in a manner that

    provides spontaneous combustion with a very energetic

    release of energy. In this case, I'm thinking that the

    airplane was fitted with what could be a compact

    and relatively light weight energy source that required

    very little maintenance and has a long storage life.

    (I've seen AQM-37 hydrazine powered targets successfully

    flown after 20 years in storage). 



    It would be interesting to hear from folks with experience

    inside the operating world of this style of aircraft

    as to it's 'dead stick' options for power.



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

Sure we do Henador, but this one of yours seemed to be contradictory, thinking the stick could be the one you control your aircraft with. Now that I got the explanation that the dead “stick” is the propeller, it makes sense.  

Here in Portugal we aviators use to say, when the engine stops, that we have a “fixed joist” in the nose…  

   

Carlos  

   

           

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henador Titzoff

 Sent: sexta-feira, 15 de Julho de 2011 22:26

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: It's nice when the center holds . . .  

  

       

...................  

   

    

Carlos, I bet you have similar sayings in your country.  

    

   

    

Henador Titzoff  

    

   

  

  [quote] [b]

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:29 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

On 07/15/2011 04:47 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		                      

           What is               really dead is               the power source!                	
       

          The last few words of the pilot suggested something I'd

          not heard before. He talked about a 'hydrazine' hazard

          around his aircraft as he was talking with locals at

          his airport of destination. There was also a reference

          to an "EPU" . . . 'possible emergency power       unit'.

       

          Hydrazine and sulfuric acid combine in a manner that

          provides spontaneous combustion with a very energetic

          release of energy. In this case, I'm thinking that the

          airplane was fitted with what could be a compact

          and relatively light weight energy source that required

          very little maintenance and has a long storage life.

          (I've seen AQM-37 hydrazine powered targets       successfully

          flown after 20 years in storage). 

       

          It would be interesting to hear from folks with       experience

          inside the operating world of this style of aircraft

          as to it's 'dead stick' options for power.

       

                

             Bob . . .

                	
     Someone actually discusses the system in the comments below the     video.

     

     Charlie

      [quote][b]

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:48 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

On 7/15/2011 3:55 PM, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   		The expression precedes the jet engine by many years. The

 "stick" was the propeller (most likely wood at that time), dead when engine

 (power source) stops.

 		



 				I did not know this origin.  Guess you can

 always learn something here on the "Lectric List"



..and I've always known what it meant  having been an RC enthusiast in 
	


the '60s when 50% of landings were 'dead stick'.

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

Bob,

  APU is the aux power unit used to start the jet engine after 

landing in the boondocks. N2H4 is a mono propellant and works great 

with no other chemical, just a catalyst. Deadly stuff gives you cancer .

  So inflight engine shutdown and the APU would not do the restart or 

was defective. At least that is the way In understand the APU.

Lots of combat planes have the N2H4 APUs.

We use the stuff exclusively for satelite propulsion systems. That is 

how we steer the spy satelites.



PaulW

========

At 03:47 PM 7/15/2011, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  >What is really dead is the power source!



    The last few words of the pilot suggested something I'd

    not heard before. He talked about a 'hydrazine' hazard

    around his aircraft as he was talking with locals at

    his airport of destination. There was also a reference

    to an "EPU" . . . 'possible emergency power unit'.



    Hydrazine and sulfuric acid combine in a manner that

    provides spontaneous combustion with a very energetic

    release of energy. In this case, I'm thinking that the

    airplane was fitted with what could be a compact

    and relatively light weight energy source that required

    very little maintenance and has a long storage life.

    (I've seen AQM-37 hydrazine powered targets successfully

    flown after 20 years in storage).



    It would be interesting to hear from folks with experience

    inside the operating world of this style of aircraft

    as to it's 'dead stick' options for power.



   Bob . . .



<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:49 am Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

Bob,

     

     I don't know F-16 systems, but have experience of other single seat     military aircraft. I'm guessing the Hydrazine unit is a light weight     method of mitigating the hazard of providing power once the (single)     motor has stopped, without fitting a huge battery. Most combat     aircraft are started with a ground power unit, so the battery     doesn't have to be very big. I'm guessing the electrical demands of     an F-16 are quite large (fly-by-wire), even with load shedding, so a     huge battery would be required to get the airplane to the ground     from max altitude - or a reasonably powerful (heavy) gas turbine     APU. So a one shot hydrazine based system is a reasonable (light     weight) solution, although it has a maintenance overhead. Bear in     mind the F-16 was designed as a lightweight fighter, so weight     saving was probably quite high on the priority list.

     

     Peter

     

     On 15/07/2011 22:47, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:     [quote]        	  Quote: 	
		                      

           What is               really dead is               the power source!                	
       

          The last few words of the pilot suggested something I'd

          not heard before. He talked about a 'hydrazine' hazard

          around his aircraft as he was talking with locals at

          his airport of destination. There was also a reference

          to an "EPU" . . . 'possible emergency power       unit'.

       

          Hydrazine and sulfuric acid combine in a manner that

          provides spontaneous combustion with a very energetic

          release of energy. In this case, I'm thinking that the

          airplane was fitted with what could be a compact

          and relatively light weight energy source that required

          very little maintenance and has a long storage life.

          (I've seen AQM-37 hydrazine powered targets       successfully

          flown after 20 years in storage). 

       

          It would be interesting to hear from folks with       experience

          inside the operating world of this style of aircraft

          as to it's 'dead stick' options for power.

       

                

             Bob . . .                   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
       [b]

lm4(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:21 am Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

Carlos,I'll take a shot at that. Back in the days of yore airplanes were slower and if you lost your engine your control surfaces, on some airplanes, were sluggish at best. This made the stick somewhat unresponsive. So someone said "it's a dead stick" Just one of those things that stuck in our lexicon. Another such example was told to us, my Aeronautics ground school, by our instructor. He had worked for the first air mail service. He, and the rest of his team hosted a british aviator and as they were doing they're flying and lying the britisher mentioned the word altimeter. Well, up to that point we called the instrument an al-ta-meter. The british gentleman called it an al-tim-meter. The boys of the first air mail service thought that his way of saying it was more like the way it should be said. And it stuck, world wide. Things just happen that way.

Larry

On Jul 15, 2011, at 2:55 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:

[quote]   st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }  <![endif]-->         

Nice landing, and a very good demonstration of excellent pilot skills!

 

The only thing I don’t really understand is why you (native English speakers) call this situation a “Dead Stick” landing, when this is everything but a dead stick. On the contrary, this is a very “Alive stick” situation…. 

What is really dead is the power source!

 

Carlos Trigo

 

 

[quote] --

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:39 am Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

At 04:46 AM 7/16/2011, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,

 

 I don't know F-16 systems, but have experience of other single seat military aircraft. I'm guessing the Hydrazine unit is a light weight method of mitigating the hazard of providing power once the (single) motor has stopped, without fitting a huge battery. Most combat aircraft are started with a ground power unit, so the battery doesn't have to be very big. I'm guessing the electrical demands of an F-16 are quite large (fly-by-wire), even with load shedding, so a huge battery would be required to get the airplane to the ground from max altitude - or a reasonably powerful (heavy) gas turbine APU. So a one shot hydrazine based system is a reasonable (light weight) solution, although it has a maintenance overhead. Bear in mind the F-16 was designed as a lightweight fighter, so weight saving was probably quite high on the priority list. 	


    That's about what I would have guessed.



    Some years ago, there was some work described in

    the development of tiny, combustion driven turbines

    for hi-energy stand-by sources. One author even

    hypothesized a lap-top computer running on butane.



    Haven't heard/read anything along those lines since.

    The GAR series IR guided missiles I used to work on

    at Hughes-Tucson had a little bottle of nitrogen

    held in liquid state at room temperatures . . . man,

    that was a lot of pressure! A frangible diaphragm held

    the liquid in check until launch. Then for the 90-second

    or so service life of the missile, the liquid expanded

    to run a small PM alternator that produced 150 watts

    to power electronics. It was then routed to the back of

    the IR optics to keep the lens cool at Lots-a-Mach. After

    that, it pressurized an open loop hydraulic system that

    operated flight controls at the trailing edges of the

    guidance fins before being exhausted overboard. That

    was in 1960.



    Given the advances in really tiny gas turbines, it

    seems certainly possible and perhaps practical to

    craft a light weight power generation device with

    considerable output and endurance while using up

    much less volume and weight budget needed for batteries

    of the same capability.



    Some ideas take a very long time to evolve into

    useful product . . .



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

But ... the F-16 is a 1980s design, and retro-fitting a gas turbine 

generator would be a lot of work to fix what is essentially a 

maintenance problem that everyone is already trained to deal with. If 

you were designing an all electric airplane today I'm guessing it would 

have some kind of turbine based generator to produce a few 10s of kW 

that would kick in really quickly.



Peter



For example ...

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2005/UNIQUEINTEGRATEDSYSTEMSTARTSF35ENGI.html



Do not archive



On 16/07/2011 15:37, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Given the advances in really tiny gas turbines, it

    seems certainly possible and perhaps practical to

    craft a light weight power generation device with

    considerable output and endurance while using up

    much less volume and weight budget needed for batteries

    of the same capability.



    Some ideas take a very long time to evolve into

    useful product . . .

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

Reading about the starter-generator-APU brings up a question I've

wondered about many times:  why don't piston engines don't have

starter-generators, or starter-alternators, or something like that?

The two devices are so similar it seems like merging the two is

obvious.  Surely there must be some basic reason it wouldn't work.

Bob?



Dave Saylor

AirCrafters

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell



On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <peter(at)sportingaero.com>



 But ... the F-16 is a 1980s design, and retro-fitting a gas turbine

 generator would be a lot of work to fix what is essentially a maintenance

 problem that everyone is already trained to deal with. If you were designing

 an all electric airplane today I'm guessing it would have some kind of

 turbine based generator to produce a few 10s of kW that would kick in really

 quickly.



 Peter



 For example ...

 http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2005/UNIQUEINTEGRATEDSYSTEMSTARTSF35ENGI.html



 Do not archive



 On 16/07/2011 15:37, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>

> Given the advances in really tiny gas turbines, it

> Â  seems certainly possible and perhaps practical to

> Â  craft a light weight power generation device with

> Â  considerable output and endurance while using up

> Â  much less volume and weight budget needed for batteries

> Â  of the same capability.

>

> Â  Some ideas take a very long time to evolve into

> Â  useful product . . .

n8zg(at)mediacombb.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

Gentlemen – 

The Cliff Notes from a retired F-16-driver buddy:

 

There are many batteries on the F-16 but they are relatively small. Each of the axis of the flight control computer has a FLCS battery (3) and then there are others as well as the A/C battery.  But, the EPU, not APU, is an emergency power unit powered by hydrazine that flows across an iridium catalyst to product energy. The hydrazine is pressurized with nitrogen I believe and flows from the tank across the catalyst.  It then runs a small turbine (at a very high rpm) which in turn powers an aux hydraulic pump with also powers a small aux generator.  It is good for a finite period of time (of which I do not recall) and basically dumps water vapor overboard.  

 

neal

=========== 

Bob,



I don't know F-16 systems, but have experience of other single seat military aircraft. I'm guessing the Hydrazine unit is a light weight method of mitigating the hazard of providing power once the (single) motor has stopped, without fitting a huge battery. Most combat aircraft are started with a ground power unit, so the battery doesn't have to be very big. I'm guessing the electrical demands of an F-16 are quite large (fly-by-wire), even with load shedding, so a huge battery would be required to get the airplane to the ground from max altitude - or a reasonably powerful (heavy) gas turbine APU. So a one shot hydrazine based system is a reasonable (light weight) solution, although it has a maintenance overhead. Bear in mind the F-16 was designed as a lightweight fighter, so weight saving was probably quite high on the priority list.



   That's about what I would have guessed.



   Some years ago, there was some work described in

   the development of tiny, combustion driven turbines

   for hi-energy stand-by sources. One author even

   hypothesized a lap-top computer running on butane.



   Haven't heard/read anything along those lines since.

   The GAR series IR guided missiles I used to work on

   at Hughes-Tucson had a little bottle of nitrogen

   held in liquid state at room temperatures . . . man,

   that was a lot of pressure! A frangible diaphragm held

   the liquid in check until launch. Then for the 90-second

   or so service life of the missile, the liquid expanded

   to run a small PM alternator that produced 150 watts

   to power electronics. It was then routed to the back of

   the IR optics to keep the lens cool at Lots-a-Mach. After

   that, it pressurized an open loop hydraulic system that

   operated flight controls at the trailing edges of the

   guidance fins before being exhausted overboard. That

   was in 1960.



   Given the advances in really tiny gas turbines, it

   seems certainly possible and perhaps practical to

   craft a light weight power generation device with

   considerable output and endurance while using up

   much less volume and weight budget needed for batteries

   of the same capability.



   Some ideas take a very long time to evolve into

   useful product . . .



  Bob . . .  	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List 	
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  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .

Funny thing is the first time I heard the term, “Dead stick landing”, I knew exactly what it meant.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of b d

Sent: July 15, 2011 6:57 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; Carlos Trigo

Subject: Re: It's nice when the center holds . . .



  	  Quote: 	
		  

The only thing I don’t really understand is why you (native English speakers) call this situation a “Dead Stick” landing, when this is everything but a dead stick. On the contrary, this is a very “Alive stick” situation….



What is really dead is the power source!

	


 



Excellent observation . . . .  the question is, shall we go back and change all the references using the "dead stick" phrase from all the books references and logs or shall we allow you to get over it and accept it. One vs. zillions   

 



As I recall in a my old conversations with the Wright Bothers it originally meant "you are close to being dead if you don't use the stick to save your ass". I remember asking that very same question to Orville and Wilbur while sitting around their potbellied stove as if it was yesterday. They reiterated that "dead" had nothing to do with the engine but more about the pilot.   



 



So if you were them, what phrase would you like to use if we were to correct the whole 100 plus years of aviation history and all log books to reflect your choice of phrases?  "Alive stick"? 



This reminds me of the prison story where the new guy comes in and hears  "257" and everyone laughs, then "522" and everyone laughs. He questions what is going on and his cell mate says, "we have told these jokes so many times we just numbered them to save time".  The new guy says "let me try one . . .  257!" but nobody laughed . . . then "522" and once again nobody laughed . . .  he asked his cell mate "what gives?"



The cell mate said, "some people can tell a joke and some can't!"



 



You can stick with "Alive stick" and see how it works for you however removing the word "dead" from your thoughts may not be as healthy at that particular time. . . please let us know how it works for you.  You could just yell out "dead" and forget the stick if that confuses you. That way the "dead" will give you some indication of what happens if you don't move the stick in the proper, timely sequence.    



 



Don't take it personal, I'm just having fun with you . . .  Where are you from?



 



Bruce



 



 



 

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:

Nice landing, and a very good demonstration of excellent pilot skills!

 

The only thing I don’t really understand is why you (native English speakers) call this situation a “Dead Stick” landing, when this is everything but a dead stick. On the contrary, this is a very “Alive stick” situation…. 

What is really dead is the power source!

 

Carlos Trigo

 

 

[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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