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Viking - no cancellatio possible

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peterthomson

Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 41
Location: Thailand

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:09 am Post subject: Viking - no cancellatio possible

When I politely asked to  cancel an order for an engine 5 mths late and 7mths paid for, following no replies to emails, I got this one-liner

 "No such thing. We can NOT refund money on custom orders." 

So know we know, no refunds. On Jul 10, 2011 2:21 PM, "Zenith-List Digest Server" <zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:> *

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 Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be found in either of the 

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  > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes 
	


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		   and Message Navigation.  The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version 

 of the Zenith-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor 

  > such as Notepad or with a web browser. 
	


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     http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2011-07-09&Archive=Zenith

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     http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2011-07-09&Archive=Zenith

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                      Total Messages Posted Sat 07/09/11: 6

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 Today's Message Index:

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      1. 12:02 AM - Re: Re: Viking  (Steve Freeman)

      2. 12:31 AM - Re: Re: Viking  (Afterfxllc(at)aol.com (Afterfxllc(at)aol.com))

  >      3. 07:00 AM - Re: Re: Viking  (n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com))
	


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		        4. 02:47 PM - Can't find a measurement in the plans  (Steve Freeman)

      5. 02:55 PM - Found it - never mind : Can't find a measurement in the plans  (Steve Freeman)

  >      6. 06:44 PM - Bose A20 Headset - NR Power Button - Panel Power  (Matt Dralle)
	


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		   Time: 12:02:40 AM PST US

 From: "Steve Freeman" <steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com (steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com)>

 Subject: RE: Re: Viking

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 > Really?
	


[quote] 

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Viking

Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 5

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Viking - no cancellatio possible

Stanton's engine is scheduled to go out this week. The engine is for a CH-701 and not a KitFox. At least the invoice indicate this. If you look at the Vikingaircraftengine web site / Zenith, you will find pictures of our own 701 installation. It is an attempt to help everyone installing the engine in the 701 and similar aircraft. This was done the last week. Nobody is sitting around doing nothing here. We work hard. This first batch of engines have taken much longer than expected, between design, prototyping, flight testing, documentation, sales and installations, we have had our hands full. However, this is easing up now when production has been streamlined, no more changes are being made and we are focusing on assembly, sales, service and continued flying. All I can say is that we have an outstanding product and that it takes huge effort to deliver it at the cost we do. I am also sorry about the delays and that we will work on reducing / eliminating them. 



Jan

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: Viking - no cancellatio possible

I don't get it... Your order was for a popular plane. Care to explain why it was a "custom" order.?  Jan pretty stated the delay was for getting the motor ready for production for several experimental planes. 

  

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject: Viking - no cancellatio possible

There all the same,they are living day to day off of your money,wake upget a eng from someone that's been doing it for a few years,and has a track record,not  a F#&$#kin pipe dream. Does "HOG AIR "  ring a bell? Joe Zenith601XL-B/ Ram

   From: "n801bh(at)netzero.com" <n801bh(at)netzero.com>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 4:31:56 PM

Subject: Re: Viking - no cancellatio possible

I don't get it... Your order was for a popular plane. Care to explain why it was a "custom" order.?  Jan pretty stated the delay was for getting the motor ready for production for several experimental planes. 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com

--------

dj45

Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 92
Location: Jackson MI

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Viking - no cancellatio possible

Than why did you tell me over the phone that my engine would be shipped in May? Check the 801701 site.

_________________
Do not archive

Dan Stanton
N801S CH 801
N226BS CH701
N24DS CH750

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Viking - no cancellatio possible

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:15 pm Post subject: Viking - no cancellatio possible

Ya know... That young gal Sabrina is gonna go far with her quite clever and intelligent answers... The Escrow idea is priceless. Not bad............... for ...a .... Girl... <GG>

Jus kiddin Sabrina.   You are on the fast track to a great life.

do not archive.

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: Viking - no cancellatio possible

I still say "the're not intrested in "Escrow" what there intrested in ,and they have to have is money to live off of and operate off of   It't a very intresting princible and has been around a very long time, and I don't think that it's taught in collage. It's called the PMA+OPM Positive Mental Attatude Plus Other Peoples Money or watch the movie "Music Man" you get to help pay for the're dream,and if they fail all they lose the dream,and you get to lose your dream AND the money. They find a new  pipe dream and start again.  Joe Zenith601XL-B

   From: "n801bh(at)netzero.com" <n801bh(at)netzero.com>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 7:10:53 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Viking - no cancellatio possible

Ya know... That young gal Sabrina is gonna go far with her quite clever and intelligent answers... The Escrow idea is priceless. Not bad................ for ...a .... Girl... <GG> 

Jus kiddin Sabrina.   You are on the fast track to a great life. 

do not archive.

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com

--------

Viking

Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 5

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Viking - no cancellatio possible

I am not sure why some in aviation want to dig their own grave.  To answer the  "return" of 5 engine question bluntly - it is impossible.  

We are NOT GM.  We are a small company that for this first batch of engines put every dime into production.  Believing in ourselves, right smack amids of the worst economic downturn in late history.  And we are succeeding.  



Anyone not supporting a 50% cheaper, yet more powerful and better running engine, by being able to wait for some time for delivery, either think we are liars, want to spend a lot more or do not believe in our mission of making aviation less expensive for EVERYONE.  This kind of thinking occurring, even with substantial information on the company web site, as well as on a Yahoo forum, that engines are going out the door, that customers are getting engines and that specific installations are being documented, etc.  I have understanding for not being happy about being the last to receive the engine, however, someone has to be first, someone last.  If we had 200 engines in stock, this would be no issue, but for now, we do not.  



You have no right to be selfish.  You have an obligation to support our efforts.  Our efforts are for all of you, not for me.  With the stress I have associated with delivery, safety, financial, flight testing, etc., I should just go work for Wall Mart and be happy   



Our efforts are 100% based on bringing aviation back on track, using the most powerful tool I can think of:  An engine, made to be affordable, so the 100+ different light sport aircraft designed in the last few years have a fighting chance to sell a few copies.  Don't you see what is happening?  Aviation is dying due the cost of getting, or staying involved.  



You are all responsible for assisting in this.  Or be happy with $18-28,000 100hp engine packages.  The positive side of this is that we do have these kinds of customers.  Some will call or write, making sure we have what we need to continue.  Some will pay ahead, with a note "I have been in business for myself and know what it is like to keep cash flow going, especially during times of prototyping and early production".  This does not go unnoticed.  Others will provide their airplanes for the first installations, etc.  



About promises for delivery:  I am a very optimistic individual.  If I believe we can get engines out in May, I say we can get engines out in May.  Unfortunately, for me,  we live in the real world.  Parts are delayed, we learn something that we would like to implement onto the engines, etc.  If those waiting only knew the benefits of doing so.  I have learned a long time ago, I will take the flack for being late, over delivering prior to being ready.   If engines all went out on time, the business plan could work and I could pay myself a salary.  Wouldn't that be nice.  



Negativity:  Stop the negativity and be exited.  If you have no idea of what you are talking about, then don't.  If you want to be a forum "expert" on all issues, then visit and fly the Viking.  Or see one for yourself at Oshkosh.  It is an incredible engine package.  I am sure you will have a lot to write about, and it will be constructive.  Throwing out stuff like "I don't think it is any good because I saw some computer generated pictures" does not help aviation.  Nor does it reflect on the currency of your information.  If someone has missed the last year, the Viking is now flying in several aircraft and is scheduled to fly in several more.  



The Viking movement need positive thinkers.  It needs people that have some guts and faith.  Two times now, we have had such pioneering individuals drop their planes at the factory, remove the existing engines and have faith in flying home with a lesser expensive, more powerful and overall better engine, and two times it has successfully happened.  Next is a Sonex.



Jan

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: Viking - no cancellatio possible

Hi Joe,

     

     I saw a similar scam a couple of months ago related to an     announcement of a nice new manufacturer of S-LSA planes in Poland.      I read the details on their web site and learned to get one you need     to make a huge deposit and then pay the rest 90 days before they     will ship it.  Obviously they are operating on the principle you     mentioned - OPM.

     

     Any really serious business venture will be capitalized enough to     produce some product for sale before taking any money from potential     customers.  The OPM model is easier to establish but it tends to     lead to the kind of dissatisfied customers we are seeing now.  If I     wanted to start a new business my first priority would be to     generate satisfied customers.  That way you get all sorts of new     business by word-of-mouth instead of a rotten reputation for     screwing your customers.

     

     Paul

     Camas, WA

     

     On 7/10/2011 5:11 PM, purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net (purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net) wrote:     [quote]       I still say "the're not intrested in "Escrow" what there         intrested in ,and they have to have is money to live off of and         operate off of   It't a very intresting princible and has been         around a very long time, and I don't think that it's taught in         collage. It's called the PMA+OPM Positive Mental Attatude Plus         Other Peoples Money or watch the movie "Music Man" you get to         help pay for the're dream,and if they fail all they lose the         dream,and you get to lose your dream AND the money. They find a         new  pipe dream and start again.  Joe Zenith601XL-B

       

       

       

     [b]

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:20 am Post subject: Viking - no cancellatio possible

Jan wrote " 

Anyone not supporting a 50% cheaper, yet more powerful and better running engine, by 

being able to wait for some time for delivery, either think we are liars, want to spend a 

lot more or do not believe in our mission of making aviation less expensive for EVERYONE. 

 This kind of thinking occurring, even with substantial information on the company web 

site, as well as on a Yahoo forum, that engines are going out the door, that customers 

are getting engines and that specific installations are being documented, etc.  I have 

understanding for not being happy about being the last to receive the engine, however, 

someone has to be first, someone last.  If we had 200 engines in stock, this would be no 

issue, but for now, we do not. "

 

The Viking is was / is advertised as a bolt on firewall forward package. Failing to deliver a product after the customer has paid in full is not the best business model to hang your hat on. Now, if you want to get up front seed money for R&D, your rent, payroll and a lump of ohter expenses then you should treat the "cumtomers" as INVESTORS because that is clearly what they are. They should expect better pricing, some form of stock option, dividend checks when you dream pans out, etc. If the 5 engine order was really promised to the shipped 8 months ago and failed to deliver then in my opinion, they have every right to complain and warn other potential buyers of that extended delay.  

I am in the same business altho in an entirely different horsepower range and I am doing all of my R&D on my dime. When the product is ready only then will I offer it for sale. But thats just my personal outlook on business and I can sleep damn good at night by not working off other peoples money...... Just look at the recent demise of Bud Warren... The potential of all those buyers waiting for engines are probably pretty slim given the set of circumstances surrounding that tragic accident.    Just my .02 cents worth....



Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

Viking

Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 5

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Viking - no cancellatio possible

I am happy for you that you have the money to do so.  We also had a flying aircraft prior to selling anything.



Jan

steve.freeman(at)syntaxds
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:00 am Post subject: Viking - no cancellatio possible

Will you folks please take this off list?



It is pretty apparent to anyone watching what is going.  But the petty

bickering is of no value to anyone.



Steve



Do Not Archive



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