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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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 Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:42 am Post subject: Oxygen systems |
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The concentrators aren't really effective if there's little oxygen available for concentrating, hence the altitude restriction. They typically work by removing the nitrogen from the air.
I doubt there would be enough oxygen available where we legally need it.
Linn
On 8/25/2011 1:16 PM, Robin Marks wrote: [quote] Bill,
I played around with an O2 concentrator (or whatever it's called) at OSH this year. The unit was repurposed from a medical application. The pricing was ~$2500 ish which seamed high to me but I guess they are use to getting "medical" cash for their products kind of like stamping Aviation on parts. I think the unit serviced two (but not 100% sure) and had altitude limitations. It was small and relatively light weight but in the end for me I thought it was too much of a leap at this time and would hope someone is working on one specifically designed for aircraft. I liked the idea in concept but their offering was not a complete solution IMHO.
Robin
Sent from my iPad2.
On Aug 25, 2011, at 12:19 PM, Bill Judge <bjudge(at)gmail.com (bjudge(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I rarely use my oxygen because it's just a pain to worry about filling up, but having a constant portable source would add lots of options.
Has anyone considered experimenting with an oxygen concentrator?
They make gadgets these days that take the 20% O2 in the atmosphere and output 90% O2.
EAA recently published a blurb about this company:
http://www.oxyfly.com/
their gear weights 24 kg and are massive in size but there are some other solutions out therefor health care that will do 0.9 liters per minute(although they say something about 5 LPM) and only weigh 6 lbs:
http://www.invacare.com/doc_files/07-067.pdf for about $3k.
Looking at Aerox's web page you need about 0.65 LPM at 18,000 per person.
Of course this gadget is only rated to work at up to 10,000 feet but it could potentially still put out some oxygen at 18000. I'm not sure if the concentration or the flow rate or both would suffer at altitude and how much... Does anyone have emphysemic friend willing to let us do some testing?
Food for thought anyway...
VR,
Bill
N84WJ, RV-8, 655 hrs, KSEE based
rv-8.blogspot.com
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[b]
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Lenny Iszak
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Oxygen systems |
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Here's a better idea! To save weight on an oxygen system, why don't we use our body's ability to acclimatize to higher altitudes.
This company makes a mountain air generator, it removes oxygen from the air.
http://www.higherpeak.com/mag-7.html
So when you're not flying you spend some time at altitude, at home. Then 15,000 ft is no longer a problem... may not be legal, but you can always carry an empty oxygen bottle with you 
On a more serious note, i talked to Innogen at OSH. They have a concentrator that is good to about 15,000 ft. At that altitude there's still almost 12% oxygen. Oxygen concentrators use a a microporous mineral called zeolite, which traps nitrogen molecules. It gets saturated in about 20 seconds, so they need to backwash it to clean the trapped nitrogen out. Then they store the about 93% oxygen.
Innogen's system weighs about 7 lbs and it's battery operated. Also runs on 12V though. The bigger problem is that it only makes 1L/min oxygen and it's for only a single person. That makes it expensive.
Found a chinese company that makes a similar one for $1500, puts out 5L/min, pulse demand, weighs 7 pounds, but it sucks up 40Amps at 12V. Uggghhh.
Lenny
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sean(at)stephensville.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: Oxygen systems |
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I've been struggling with what to get for an oxy setup for some time.
Having never used any system before makes it even tougher. Of course
I'd really like the MH 4ip, but I cannot bring myself to spend the $6500
on it. I've thought of even purchasing a couple of MH's O2D2 portable
pulse demand systems which would be about a couple grand less than the 4ip.
Anyone have recommendations on a good portable system? I've seen that
archive chats about it but was wondering if there are more options since
then. Other than training my body for 15,000ft.
-Sean #40303 (wiring and prepping for my IFR training x-country)
On 8/25/11 1:45 PM, Lenny Iszak wrote:
| Quote: |
Here's a better idea! To save weight on an oxygen system, why don't we use our body's ability to acclimatize to higher altitudes.
This company makes a mountain air generator, it removes oxygen from the air.
http://www.higherpeak.com/mag-7.html
So when you're not flying you spend some time at altitude, at home. Then 15,000 ft is no longer a problem... may not be legal, but you can always carry an empty oxygen bottle with you
On a more serious note, i talked to Innogen at OSH. They have a concentrator that is good to about 15,000 ft. At that altitude there's still almost 12% oxygen. Oxygen concentrators use a a microporous mineral called zeolite, which traps nitrogen molecules. It gets saturated in about 20 seconds, so they need to backwash it to clean the trapped nitrogen out. Then they store the about 93% oxygen.
Innogen's system weighs about 7 lbs and it's battery operated. Also runs on 12V though. The bigger problem is that it only makes 1L/min oxygen and it's for only a single person. That makes it expensive.
Found a chinese company that makes a similar one for $1500, puts out 5L/min, pulse demand, weighs 7 pounds, but it sucks up 40Amps at 12V. Uggghhh.
Lenny
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350569#350569
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rleffler
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:03 pm Post subject: Oxygen systems |
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I spent quite a bit of time looking at a variety of vendor solutions at OSH
this year.
I ended up making two decisions after spending a significant amount of time
studying the options.
1. I've got to get flying first, then Phase 1. I will probably not need O2
for a year, so I don't need to buy right now. I need to focus on getting
everything finished. This delays the expense for probably a year.
2. As much as I would like the MH 4ip, I can't afford it at the moment.
Two kids in college, and what seems to be a money pit in getting the RV-10
finish has drained the bank account. Fortunately, with MH, you can buy the
low end system to start, then upgrade as the need demands or budget
supports. By the bottle and cannulas now, add a pulse demand regulator
and new cannulas when you can afford it. If you win the lottery, then
splurge and get the 4ip.
Bob
--
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N410BL - Phase I
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject: Oxygen systems |
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Personally, I'd get the O2D2 if I were doing it all over again.
In fact, if someone wants to buy 2 of my demand conservers,
I'd probably consider putting 02D2's in the front seats
right now.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 8/25/2011 5:03 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:
| Quote: |
I've been struggling with what to get for an oxy setup for some time.
Having never used any system before makes it even tougher. Of course I'd
really like the MH 4ip, but I cannot bring myself to spend the $6500 on
it. I've thought of even purchasing a couple of MH's O2D2 portable pulse
demand systems which would be about a couple grand less than the 4ip.
Anyone have recommendations on a good portable system? I've seen that
archive chats about it but was wondering if there are more options since
then. Other than training my body for 15,000ft.
-Sean #40303 (wiring and prepping for my IFR training x-country)
On 8/25/11 1:45 PM, Lenny Iszak wrote:
>
>
> Here's a better idea! To save weight on an oxygen system, why don't we
> use our body's ability to acclimatize to higher altitudes.
> This company makes a mountain air generator, it removes oxygen from
> the air.
>
> http://www.higherpeak.com/mag-7.html
>
> So when you're not flying you spend some time at altitude, at home.
> Then 15,000 ft is no longer a problem... may not be legal, but you can
> always carry an empty oxygen bottle with you
> On a more serious note, i talked to Innogen at OSH. They have a
> concentrator that is good to about 15,000 ft. At that altitude there's
> still almost 12% oxygen. Oxygen concentrators use a a microporous
> mineral called zeolite, which traps nitrogen molecules. It gets
> saturated in about 20 seconds, so they need to backwash it to clean
> the trapped nitrogen out. Then they store the about 93% oxygen.
> Innogen's system weighs about 7 lbs and it's battery operated. Also
> runs on 12V though. The bigger problem is that it only makes 1L/min
> oxygen and it's for only a single person. That makes it expensive.
>
> Found a chinese company that makes a similar one for $1500, puts out
> 5L/min, pulse demand, weighs 7 pounds, but it sucks up 40Amps at 12V.
> Uggghhh.
>
> Lenny
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350569#350569
>
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Oxygen systems |
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You and I are in the same boat or rv. O2 next year fly this year.
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sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: Oxygen systems |
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I have been leaning towards a couple of O2D2s. I'd like a semi-portable
system. One where I can remove the cylinder anytime I know I won't be
using it and also for easy filling. At the same time I'd really like
everything else to be plumbed.
I still need to give MH a call and spec out a complete system that fits
that bill. I really don't need the pilot monitoring side of things that
the 2/4ip gives you. Maybe a remote switch for the regulator on/off and
a simple gauge on the regulator is all I need.
Now to decide if I wait until after fly off or plumb it now....
-Sean #40303
On 8/25/11 6:11 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
Personally, I'd get the O2D2 if I were doing it all over again.
In fact, if someone wants to buy 2 of my demand conservers,
I'd probably consider putting 02D2's in the front seats
right now.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 8/25/2011 5:03 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:
>
>
> I've been struggling with what to get for an oxy setup for some time.
> Having never used any system before makes it even tougher. Of course I'd
> really like the MH 4ip, but I cannot bring myself to spend the $6500 on
> it. I've thought of even purchasing a couple of MH's O2D2 portable pulse
> demand systems which would be about a couple grand less than the 4ip.
>
> Anyone have recommendations on a good portable system? I've seen that
> archive chats about it but was wondering if there are more options since
> then. Other than training my body for 15,000ft.
>
> -Sean #40303 (wiring and prepping for my IFR training x-country)
>
> On 8/25/11 1:45 PM, Lenny Iszak wrote:
>>
>> Iszak"<lenard(at)rapiddecision.com>
>>
>> Here's a better idea! To save weight on an oxygen system, why don't we
>> use our body's ability to acclimatize to higher altitudes.
>> This company makes a mountain air generator, it removes oxygen from
>> the air.
>>
>> http://www.higherpeak.com/mag-7.html
>>
>> So when you're not flying you spend some time at altitude, at home.
>> Then 15,000 ft is no longer a problem... may not be legal, but you can
>> always carry an empty oxygen bottle with you
>>
>>
>> On a more serious note, i talked to Innogen at OSH. They have a
>> concentrator that is good to about 15,000 ft. At that altitude there's
>> still almost 12% oxygen. Oxygen concentrators use a a microporous
>> mineral called zeolite, which traps nitrogen molecules. It gets
>> saturated in about 20 seconds, so they need to backwash it to clean
>> the trapped nitrogen out. Then they store the about 93% oxygen.
>> Innogen's system weighs about 7 lbs and it's battery operated. Also
>> runs on 12V though. The bigger problem is that it only makes 1L/min
>> oxygen and it's for only a single person. That makes it expensive.
>>
>> Found a chinese company that makes a similar one for $1500, puts out
>> 5L/min, pulse demand, weighs 7 pounds, but it sucks up 40Amps at 12V.
>> Uggghhh.
>>
>> Lenny
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350569#350569
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
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Strasnuts
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: Oxygen systems |
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I just used mine today!
It is the MH portable for 4 place and the O2D2 for the front two pax. Works
great. Highly recommend it.
---
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40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours |
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sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject: Oxygen systems |
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The XCP 4 place from MH seems like an excellent starter system for $795
(AL-682 cylinder) with the option of adding the O2D2s later on. Just
add the mounting hardware for the cylinder at $79 and it's removable.
$875 to start is much more tolerable than $6500 that's for sure.
Thanks everyone!
-Sean #40303
BTW: I've been enjoying my IFR training. It is making me a more
proficient pilot indeed. Plus it keeps me flying and current while
progressing through the build.
On 8/25/11 7:09 PM, Seano wrote:
[quote]
I just used mine today!
It is the MH portable for 4 place and the O2D2 for the front two pax.
Works great. Highly recommend it.
---
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:50 pm Post subject: Oxygen systems |
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One of my favorite things about my -10 O2 system is the simple gauge
in the cockpit informing me of the tank volume while in flight.
Robin
Sent from my iPad2.
On Aug 25, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have been leaning towards a couple of O2D2s. I'd like a semi-portable system. One where I can remove the cylinder anytime I know I won't be using it and also for easy filling. At the same time I'd really like everything else to be plumbed.
I still need to give MH a call and spec out a complete system that fits that bill. I really don't need the pilot monitoring side of things that the 2/4ip gives you. Maybe a remote switch for the regulator on/off and a simple gauge on the regulator is all I need.
Now to decide if I wait until after fly off or plumb it now....
-Sean #40303
On 8/25/11 6:11 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> Personally, I'd get the O2D2 if I were doing it all over again.
> In fact, if someone wants to buy 2 of my demand conservers,
> I'd probably consider putting 02D2's in the front seats
> right now.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
> On 8/25/2011 5:03 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've been struggling with what to get for an oxy setup for some time.
>> Having never used any system before makes it even tougher. Of course I'd
>> really like the MH 4ip, but I cannot bring myself to spend the $6500 on
>> it. I've thought of even purchasing a couple of MH's O2D2 portable pulse
>> demand systems which would be about a couple grand less than the 4ip.
>>
>> Anyone have recommendations on a good portable system? I've seen that
>> archive chats about it but was wondering if there are more options since
>> then. Other than training my body for 15,000ft.
>>
>> -Sean #40303 (wiring and prepping for my IFR training x-country)
>>
>> On 8/25/11 1:45 PM, Lenny Iszak wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's a better idea! To save weight on an oxygen system, why don't we
>>> use our body's ability to acclimatize to higher altitudes.
>>> This company makes a mountain air generator, it removes oxygen from
>>> the air.
>>>
>>> http://www.higherpeak.com/mag-7.html
>>>
>>> So when you're not flying you spend some time at altitude, at home.
>>> Then 15,000 ft is no longer a problem... may not be legal, but you can
>>> always carry an empty oxygen bottle with you
>>>
>>>
>>> On a more serious note, i talked to Innogen at OSH. They have a
>>> concentrator that is good to about 15,000 ft. At that altitude there's
>>> still almost 12% oxygen. Oxygen concentrators use a a microporous
>>> mineral called zeolite, which traps nitrogen molecules. It gets
>>> saturated in about 20 seconds, so they need to backwash it to clean
>>> the trapped nitrogen out. Then they store the about 93% oxygen.
>>> Innogen's system weighs about 7 lbs and it's battery operated. Also
>>> runs on 12V though. The bigger problem is that it only makes 1L/min
>>> oxygen and it's for only a single person. That makes it expensive.
>>>
>>> Found a chinese company that makes a similar one for $1500, puts out
>>> 5L/min, pulse demand, weighs 7 pounds, but it sucks up 40Amps at 12V.
>>> Uggghhh.
>>>
>>> Lenny
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350569#350569
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
|
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nukeflyboy
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Granbury, TX
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Oxygen systems |
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From an economy standpoint you can't beat the portables. Since O2 is cheap (and available at Home Depot) I don't think I can cost justify the demand regulators. Though I have plumbed lines to the pax, it is optional for them, not the pilot.
You can get a pulse oximeter on line for under $75 and I would highly recommend it. The CO monitor folks now have a combined CO meter and pulse oximeter, but it is a bit pricey at $800 if I remember correctly. Kinda cool - just stick your finger in the panel.
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Dave Moore
RV-6 built and sold
RV-10 built and flying |
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AirMike
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: oxygen systems |
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Just my two bits.
If you are older (like over 55) you should be using oxygen especially here in the West. I am amazed at the number of people especially older people, who do not routinely use O2. I have an Aerox 2 pax system that uses the canulas.
I recently did a long trip up to Kalispell MT. Up at 13.5 and back at 12.5. It was a killer trip back - four hrs and forty five minutes. Without O2, I would have been wasted.
I also feel that you should also have a blood Oximeter to monitor your blood-O2. Without the Oximeter you really do not know what you are getting. Kinda like driving without a speedometer. I find that as I get older that the O2 keeps me sharper and more alert. I have also found that I need more O2 than indicated on the flowmeter. Using the Oximeter tells me exactly what my oxygen needs are.... Set your baseline at home and keep it close to that at altitude.
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject: Oxygen systems |
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If you purchase a cheap finger meter I strongly suggest you keep it in
a ziploc bag with the battery removed. Insert the battery when you
need to use the unit. If you leave the battery in expect a 99% chance
of the battery being dead. Also some of those units take a $6-9.00
battery. Plan ahead, it's useless with no power.
Ask me how I know,
Robin
Sent from my iPad2.
On Aug 26, 2011, at 7:20 PM, "nukeflyboy" <flymoore(at)charter.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
> From an economy standpoint you can't beat the portables. Since O2 is cheap (and available at Home Depot) I don't think I can cost justify the demand regulators. Though I have plumbed lines to the pax, it is optional for them, not the pilot.
You can get a pulse oximeter on line for under $75 and I would highly recommend it. The CO monitor folks now have a combined CO meter and pulse oximeter, but it is a bit pricey at $800 if I remember correctly. Kinda cool - just stick your finger in the panel.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - Need to start panel
Rest almost done
Breathing too much fiberglass dust
you
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350684#350684
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject: Oxygen systems |
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Pulse oximeters are available at Walgreens and other drug stores these
days for under $50.
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:12 PM, nukeflyboy <flymoore(at)charter.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
>From an economy standpoint you can't beat the portables. Since O2 is cheap (and available at Home Depot) I don't think I can cost justify the demand regulators. Though I have plumbed lines to the pax, it is optional for them, not the pilot.
You can get a pulse oximeter on line for under $75 and I would highly recommend it. The CO monitor folks now have a combined CO meter and pulse oximeter, but it is a bit pricey at $800 if I remember correctly. Kinda cool - just stick your finger in the panel.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - Need to start panel
Rest almost done
Breathing too much fiberglass dust
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350684#350684
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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