Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - G Tolerance and Hydration

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

G Tolerance and Hydration

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

rick(at)rvairshows.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

As a newby on the list, I missed your response. From years of aerobatic contests and air show aerobatics, I have seen the risk of g-loc due to elevated body temp and dehydration equal the risk of fire. I agree that this has to be a personal decision based on conditions and not mandated. Similar arguments can be made with respect to helmet wear



Sent from my iPhone



On Jun 28, 2011, at 5:45 PM, Brian Lloyd <[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Yak Pilot < (yakplt(at)yahoo.com)[url=mailto:yakplt(at)yahoo.com]yakplt(at)yahoo.com (yakplt(at)yahoo.com)[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian Lloyd < (brian(at)lloyd.com)[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]> wrote:

 "Didn't we have an argument about nomex about 10 years ago? "

  

 

Not that I remember ......

	




Let's see if I can annoy everyone by bringing it up again. It had to do with Red Star requiring nomex flight suits and gloves for Red Star events. I got all pissy about them telling me how I have to dress in my own airplane. I brought up the issue of heat and dehydration impairing safety more than wearing nomex poopy-suits improves safety.

 



Remember now?



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

 (brian(at)lloyd.com)[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

 +1.916.877.5067 (USA)



   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	




 [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

Guess you did not like the editorial on the second page of this months EAA magazine either on the topic either.

The way to manage your GLOC risk is to maintain an active life style incorporating moderate aerobic and anaerobic exercise. Drink enough water while wondering around the ramp to keep the color of your piss pretty much clear or light yellow. If you are not having to take a piss before you step then you are probably a little dry. Fly accordingly. Stay out of the sun a long as possible between flights. If you are new to pulling G's get with someone that can teach you how to do the anti-G straining maneuver.

Otherwise you can fly in whatever attire you like. I'll just remind you of the AF Academy student that was in San Antonio 3-4  years ago that lost her engine on T.O. She was wearing a pair of shorts, tennis shoes, and T-shirt when her Diamond hit the ground and burned. She suffered 3rd degree burns over 70% of her body. She now has no fingers, toes, or face. She has scar contractures  that have to be periodically surgically lysed so she can walk and extend her arms. Also, she is no longer in the AF. Her dream was to be an AF pilot. 



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 27, 2011, at 5:39 PM, RICHARD VOLKER <rick(at)rvairshows.com (rick(at)rvairshows.com)> wrote:



[quote]As a newby on the list, I missed your response. From years of aerobatic contests and air show aerobatics, I have seen the risk of g-loc due to elevated body temp and dehydration equal the risk of fire. I agree that this has to be a personal decision based on conditions and not mandated. Similar arguments can be made with respect to helmet wear



Sent from my iPhone



On Jun 28, 2011, at 5:45 PM, Brian Lloyd < (brian(at)lloyd.com)[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Yak Pilot < (yakplt(at)yahoo.com) (yakplt(at)yahoo.com)[url=mailto:yakplt(at)yahoo.com]yakplt(at)yahoo.com (yakplt(at)yahoo.com)[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian Lloyd < (brian(at)lloyd.com) (brian(at)lloyd.com)[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]> wrote:

 "Didn't we have an argument about nomex about 10 years ago? "

  

 

Not that I remember ......

	




Let's see if I can annoy everyone by bringing it up again. It had to do with Red Star requiring nomex flight suits and gloves for Red Star events. I got all pissy about them telling me how I have to dress in my own airplane. I brought up the issue of heat and dehydration impairing safety more than wearing nomex poopy-suits improves safety.

 



Remember now?



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

 (brian(at)lloyd.com) (brian(at)lloyd.com)[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

 +1.916.877.5067 (USA)



   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	




  	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

Rick,

I realize you are not knew to G's. My point was to dress, hydrate, and train sensibly for G's and any other disaster.

Doc 



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 27, 2011, at 5:39 PM, RICHARD VOLKER <rick(at)rvairshows.com (rick(at)rvairshows.com)> wrote:



[quote]As a newby on the list, I missed your response. From years of aerobatic contests and air show aerobatics, I have seen the risk of g-loc due to elevated body temp and dehydration equal the risk of fire. I agree that this has to be a personal decision based on conditions and not mandated. Similar arguments can be made with respect to helmet wear



Sent from my iPhone



On Jun 28, 2011, at 5:45 PM, Brian Lloyd < (brian(at)lloyd.com)[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Yak Pilot < (yakplt(at)yahoo.com) (yakplt(at)yahoo.com)[url=mailto:yakplt(at)yahoo.com]yakplt(at)yahoo.com (yakplt(at)yahoo.com)[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian Lloyd < (brian(at)lloyd.com) (brian(at)lloyd.com)[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]> wrote:

 "Didn't we have an argument about nomex about 10 years ago? "

  

 

Not that I remember ......

	




Let's see if I can annoy everyone by bringing it up again. It had to do with Red Star requiring nomex flight suits and gloves for Red Star events. I got all pissy about them telling me how I have to dress in my own airplane. I brought up the issue of heat and dehydration impairing safety more than wearing nomex poopy-suits improves safety.

 



Remember now?



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

 (brian(at)lloyd.com) (brian(at)lloyd.com)[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

 +1.916.877.5067 (USA)



   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	




  	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   But lest you think I am am totally on the side of wearing shorts and a Hawaiian shirt in the cockpit: 

 



http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/fighting-fire/



	




On further thought, I think this implies that the standard single-layer nomex flight suit worn over cotton underwear is probably insufficient to protect against any significant fire in the cockpit. If you want fire protection you may want to consider something closer to what the gentleman in the story was wearing.

 



Likewise we can consider taking a page from the race-car drivers for preventing the deleterious effects of temperature. Most race-car drivers now wear a device known as a "cool shirt". It is a vest that has tubing to circulate cool water to help maintain core body temperature at reasonable levels. 

 



So, if one is concerned about both of these things, i.e. fire and debilitation from heat, it may be that the only thing we can say about shorts vs. single-layer nomex is, "neither works well."

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

Bad news for the military.



Bill



On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:57 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:



[quote]On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Brian Lloyd <[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   But lest you think I am am totally on the side of wearing shorts and a Hawaiian shirt in the cockpit: 

 



http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/fighting-fire/



	




On further thought, I think this implies that the standard single-layer nomex flight suit worn over cotton underwear is probably insufficient to protect against any significant fire in the cockpit. If you want fire protection you may want to consider something closer to what the gentleman in the story was wearing.

 



Likewise we can consider taking a page from the race-car drivers for preventing the deleterious effects of temperature. Most race-car drivers now wear a device known as a "cool shirt". It is a vest that has tubing to circulate cool water to help maintain core body temperature at reasonable levels. 

 



So, if one is concerned about both of these things, i.e. fire and debilitation from heat, it may be that the only thing we can say about shorts vs. single-layer nomex is, "neither works well."

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:04 pm Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

The cool shirt was also promoted by the Aeroshell team.They also wear flight suits, but recognize the debilitating effects of heat and dehydration on G-tolerance.

For grins I weighed, flew with Sergei for 1hr 10mins and re-weighed.  

Lost 2.3 pounds !!  Just over one liter.  

(All sweat - no caca !!)

By the way I just found out Jimmy Fordham was a member of the Aeroshell team.  No more Red Star?





 Herb

 



 

On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:57 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

[quote]On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   But lest you think I am am totally on the side of wearing shorts and a Hawaiian shirt in the cockpit: 

 



http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/fighting-fire/



	




On further thought, I think this implies that the standard single-layer nomex flight suit worn over cotton underwear is probably insufficient to protect against any significant fire in the cockpit. If you want fire protection you may want to consider something closer to what the gentleman in the story was wearing.

 



Likewise we can consider taking a page from the race-car drivers for preventing the deleterious effects of temperature. Most race-car drivers now wear a device known as a "cool shirt". It is a vest that has tubing to circulate cool water to help maintain core body temperature at reasonable levels. 

 



So, if one is concerned about both of these things, i.e. fire and debilitation from heat, it may be that the only thing we can say about shorts vs. single-layer nomex is, "neither works well."

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

CD 2.0

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: G Tolerance and Hydration

A fire protective suit is recommended.  When you're flying in shorts, shirt etc, remember you're surrounded by highly flammable liquids... not a good idea... but let's not forget how the thickness of the Nomex flight suits could certainly increase body temperatures turning into faster dehydration.  Let's not underestimate the dangers of dehydration and how "important" is to drink "plenty and often" before getting in the cockpit. 



Keep in mind that when your body gets hot, it sweats.  The heat from your body is dissipated because it's spent turning the water on your skin into vapor. As the sweat evaporates from your body, more sweat takes its place for as long as your body decides that it needs to cool itself down, the advantage is that your body can regulate its temperature, the disadvantage being that you lose water and can dehydrate.



Now that bottle of water you just sucked down... is going to take almost "45 minutes" to be absorbed into your blood stream, another factor to take into consideration as when you may be feeling thirsty, it could be too late. 



When you begin to lose too much water, your body can heat up faster causing you to suffer from heat exhaustion... which is something you don't want to mess with... Initial symptoms include nausea, dizziness, and lack of sweat (because you're dehydrated). With continued exposure to heat, other symptoms include ringing in the ears, headache, and loss of muscle control... just to start...



Upon noticing the first symptom, dive fast, land in a rush, get out of the heat and replenish the body's water immediately.



Carl

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

It looks like they use something heavier than the typical used military issue.  They use something heavier - like a NASCAR race type outfit.



Jimmy?  Still on the list.  After OSH, I'll call him.

Herb



 Dr. Herb Coussons, MD

drc(at)wscare.com (drc(at)wscare.com)

2641 Development Drive

Green Bay, WI  54311

Cell 920-639-8434

Work 920-338-6868

Fax 920-338-6869

 

 

On Jul 27, 2011, at 11:50 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

[quote]



On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Herb Coussons <drc(at)wscare.com (drc(at)wscare.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The cool shirt was also promoted by the Aeroshell team.They also wear flight suits, but recognize the debilitating effects of heat and dehydration on G-tolerance.



	
 



Interesting. Do they wear multiple layers of nomex? That seems to be the key.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   For grins I weighed, flew with Sergei for 1hr 10mins and re-weighed.  

Lost 2.3 pounds !!  Just over one liter.  

(All sweat - no caca !!)



	




No surprise at all. Makes sense to me.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:29 am Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 12:21 AM, CD 2.0 <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com (dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: "CD 2.0" <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com (dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com)>

 

 A fire protective suit is recommended.  When you're flying in shorts, shirt etc, remember you're surrounded by highly flammable liquids... not a good idea... but let's not forget how the thickness of the Nomex flight suits could certainly increase body temperatures turning into faster dehydration.  Let's not underestimate the dangers of dehydration and how "important" is to drink "plenty and often" before getting in the cockpit.

  

 Keep in mind that when your body gets hot, it sweats.  The heat from your body is dissipated because it's spent turning the water on your skin into vapor. As the sweat evaporates from your body, more sweat takes its place for as long as your body decides that it needs to cool itself down, the advantage is that your body can regulate its temperature, the disadvantage being that you lose water and can dehydrate.

 	




Except that the flight suit reduces or prevents free airflow over the body and negates the evaporative cooling effect. You have to move a LOT of air over the suit in order to restore normal skin evaporative cooling. 

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Now that bottle of water you just sucked down... is going to take almost "45 minutes" to be absorbed into your blood stream, another factor to take into consideration as when you may be feeling thirsty, it could be too late.

  

 When you begin to lose too much water, your body can heat up faster causing you to suffer from heat exhaustion... which is something you don't want to mess with... Initial symptoms include nausea, dizziness, and lack of sweat (because you're dehydrated). With continued exposure to heat, other symptoms include ringing in the ears, headache, and loss of muscle control... just to start...

  

 Upon noticing the first symptom, dive fast, land in a rush, get out of the heat and replenish the body's water immediately.

	




You know, when you really analyze this, you see that the two problems, fire protection and body cooling, are mutually exclusive. You really need to take another look at how you want to deal with the problem. The "perfect" solution is the one that the race car drivers have adopted: full, multi-layer fire protection with a separate, active cooling system (cool shirt). If you aren't going to go that way you may actually find that, in terms of total risk reduction, shorts and a t-shirt are indeed the lower-risk compromise.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

CD 2.0

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: G Tolerance and Hydration

Brian, excellent point.   It makes complete sense.   Hopefully a manufacture can come up with the best of both worlds, fire protection with cooling capabilities or lighter, thinner materials to prevent body overheating.  



I believe there is a profitable enough market in the aviation industry to keep innovation and bring to production flight suits with similar qualities of those that comply and exceed SFI standards... or who knows... we may all have to look like Nascar or F1 drivers in military airplanes... 



Carl 



 	  brian(at)lloyd.com wrote: 	
		  

You know, when you really analyze this, you see that the two problems, fire protection and body cooling, are mutually exclusive. You really need to take another look at how you want to deal with the problem. The "perfect" solution is the one that the race car drivers have adopted: full, multi-layer fire protection with a separate, active cooling system (cool shirt). If you aren't going to go that way you may actually find that, in terms of total risk reduction, shorts and a t-shirt are indeed the lower-risk compromise.

Pete Fowler

Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 76
Location: California

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:55 am Post subject: Re: G Tolerance and Hydration

I have pretty extensive experience with nomex suits in auto racing situations and the military nomex 1-layer suit wouldn't be legal for use in the most amateur of amateur racing series in the U.S. Ironically, these same series require a fuel-cell, on-board extinguishers and fires are extremely rare.



The minimum protection for a car with an estimated evacuation of 10 seconds (good luck with that) is 2-layers, that can either be a quilted 2-layer suit or a 1-layer suit + nomex (or, Carbon-X, Kevlar, or PBI) underwear. That also includes nomex socks, fire resistant shoes, nomex gloves and nomex balaclavas (and nomex lined helmets). Note that the 1-layer suit + underwear combination was tested in 1977 and actually provided protection for less than 8 seconds before 2nd degree burns occurred. Modern SFI rated 1-layer suits plus nomex (or equivalent) underwear can protect for up to 9.5 seconds. Note the underwear alone adds 2-3 seconds of protection.



Most higher-spec racing series require at least 3 "layers" which can consist of a 3-layer suit or 2-layer suit + nomex (or, Carbon-X, Kevlar, or PBI) underwear plus all the other nomex stuff. Note the quilting of the suit and the spaces between layers provide significant gains in protection and are very important components in fire protection. Drag racing (where fire is common and egress difficult) requires even higher levels of fire protection.



3-layer suits with full equipment can protect a driver against being burned in a fire for several seconds but any exposed skin (typically around the eyes where the ballaclava doesn't cover) will get burned. The thinner 2-layer nomex gloves typically result in 2nd degree burns to the hands.



Cool suits are great, remember you have to have a cooler full of iced water and a pump to make that work. They basically circulate cool water around your chest and keep your core cooler.



I've raced with 3-layers of nomex at up to 116 degrees ambeint (and 140 degrees cockpit) and without fluid replacement, meaningful dehydration sets in within about 20 minutes (regardless of how much fluid was consumed prior to driving). Nearly all race cars now have on-board hydration systems (remote bottles with pumps to a drinking tube).



I often wear the nomex flight suit but only believe that it offers decorative and pratical benefits and no meaningful fire protection (at all). Without multi-layers, quilted suits, fire proof gloves, socks, shoes and face protection, that green suit isn't going to do anything for you. That having been said, it's better than shorts and a T-shirt because at least in the case of a flash fire around the plane, you won't instantly get burned.

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:16 am Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

Now, that's an informed discussion. Thanks, Pete.

..Blitz



Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 29, 2011, at 7:55 AM, "Pete Fowler" <pfdesign1(at)cox.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have pretty extensive experience with nomex suits in auto racing situations and the military nomex 1-layer suit wouldn't be legal for use in the most amateur of amateur racing series in the U.S. Ironically, these same series require a fuel-cell, on-board extinguishers and fires are extremely rare.

 

 The minimum protection for a car with an estimated evacuation of 10 seconds (good luck with that) is 2-layers, that can either be a quilted 2-layer suit or a 1-layer suit + nomex (or, Carbon-X, Kevlar, or PBI) underwear. That also includes nomex socks, fire resistant shoes, nomex gloves and nomex balaclavas (and nomex lined helmets). Note that the 1-layer suit + underwear combination was tested in 1977 and actually provided protection for less than 8 seconds before 2nd degree burns occurred. Modern SFI rated 1-layer suits plus nomex (or equivalent) underwear can protect for up to 9.5 seconds. Note the underwear alone adds 2-3 seconds of protection.

 

 Most higher-spec racing series require at least 3 "layers" which can consist of a 3-layer suit or 2-layer suit + nomex (or, Carbon-X, Kevlar, or PBI) underwear plus all the other nomex stuff. Note the quilting of the suit and the spaces between layers provide significant gains in protection and are very important components in fire protection. Drag racing (where fire is common and egress difficult) requires even higher levels of fire protection.

 

 3-layer suits with full equipment can protect a driver against being burned in a fire for several seconds but any exposed skin (typically around the eyes where the ballaclava doesn't cover) will get burned. The thinner 2-layer nomex gloves typically result in 2nd degree burns to the hands.

 

 Cool suits are great, remember you have to have a cooler full of iced water and a pump to make that work. They basically circulate cool water around your chest and keep your core cooler.

 

 I've raced with 3-layers of nomex at up to 116 degrees ambeint (and 140 degrees cockpit) and without fluid replacement, meaningful dehydration sets in within about 20 minutes (regardless of how much fluid was consumed prior to driving). Nearly all race cars now have on-board hydration systems (remote bottles with pumps to a drinking tube).

 

 I often wear the nomex flight suit but only believe that it offers decorative and pratical benefits and no meaningful fire protection (at all). Without multi-layers, quilted suits, fire proof gloves, socks, shoes and face protection, that green suit isn't going to do anything for you. That having been said, it's better than shorts and a T-shirt because at least in the case of a flash fire around the plane, you won't instantly get burned.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347997#347997

pnicholson

Joined: 04 Jun 2011
Posts: 46

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:43 am Post subject: Re: G Tolerance and Hydration

An excellent response from Pete Fowler which brings up a elephant in the room question.  If we as a community are so safety conscious,  why are we not looking outside 'industry' at better fire retardant clothing/layering/cooling etc?  Why do we cling to "apparently" insufficient one layer of surplus US govt issue flightsuits? So we can fly formation at Red Star?  After reading Pete's response, I will definitely be looking at nomex underwear in addition to my flight suit at a minimum; for safety's sake.



 	  Pete Fowler wrote: 	
		  I have pretty extensive experience with nomex suits in auto racing situations and the military nomex 1-layer suit wouldn't be legal for use in the most amateur of amateur racing series in the U.S. Ironically, these same series require a fuel-cell, on-board extinguishers and fires are extremely rare.



The minimum protection for a car with an estimated evacuation of 10 seconds (good luck with that) is 2-layers, that can either be a quilted 2-layer suit or a 1-layer suit + nomex (or, Carbon-X, Kevlar, or PBI) underwear. That also includes nomex socks, fire resistant shoes, nomex gloves and nomex balaclavas (and nomex lined helmets). Note that the 1-layer suit + underwear combination was tested in 1977 and actually provided protection for less than 8 seconds before 2nd degree burns occurred. Modern SFI rated 1-layer suits plus nomex (or equivalent) underwear can protect for up to 9.5 seconds. Note the underwear alone adds 2-3 seconds of protection.



Most higher-spec racing series require at least 3 "layers" which can consist of a 3-layer suit or 2-layer suit + nomex (or, Carbon-X, Kevlar, or PBI) underwear plus all the other nomex stuff. Note the quilting of the suit and the spaces between layers provide significant gains in protection and are very important components in fire protection. Drag racing (where fire is common and egress difficult) requires even higher levels of fire protection.



3-layer suits with full equipment can protect a driver against being burned in a fire for several seconds but any exposed skin (typically around the eyes where the ballaclava doesn't cover) will get burned. The thinner 2-layer nomex gloves typically result in 2nd degree burns to the hands.



Cool suits are great, remember you have to have a cooler full of iced water and a pump to make that work. They basically circulate cool water around your chest and keep your core cooler.



I've raced with 3-layers of nomex at up to 116 degrees ambeint (and 140 degrees cockpit) and without fluid replacement, meaningful dehydration sets in within about 20 minutes (regardless of how much fluid was consumed prior to driving). Nearly all race cars now have on-board hydration systems (remote bottles with pumps to a drinking tube).



I often wear the nomex flight suit but only believe that it offers decorative and pratical benefits and no meaningful fire protection (at all). Without multi-layers, quilted suits, fire proof gloves, socks, shoes and face protection, that green suit isn't going to do anything for you. That having been said, it's better than shorts and a T-shirt because at least in the case of a flash fire around the plane, you won't instantly get burned.

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:38 pm Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

This group would not be willing to pay the cost it would take to market the kind of system for the protection you are asking for. That was proven with the CO scrubber system.

Doc

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 28, 2011, at 9:33 PM, "CD 2.0" <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Brian, excellent point.   It makes complete sense.   Hopefully a manufacture can come up with the best of both worlds, fire protection with cooling capabilities or lighter, thinner materials to prevent body overheating.  

 I believe there is a profitable enough market in the aviation industry to keep innovation and bring to production flight suits with similar qualities of those that comply and exceed SFI standards... or who knows... we may all have to look like Nascar or F1 drivers in military airplanes... 

 Carl 

 brian(at)lloyd.com wrote:

> 

> You know, when you really analyze this, you see that the two problems, fire protection and body cooling, are mutually exclusive. You really need to take another look at how you want to deal with the problem. The "perfect" solution is the one that the race car drivers have adopted: full, multi-layer fire protection with a separate, active cooling system (cool shirt). If you aren't going to go that way you may actually find that, in terms of total risk reduction, shorts and a t-shirt are indeed the lower-risk compromise.

> 

> 

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347965#347965

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

Amen, hallaluyah.  Great post on an old subject.  I flew all of the pre-osh without the flight suit this year (hot - and extrra 2 flights commuting in every day from GRB)  This was my decision when weighing the heat / hydration vs fire risk question.



I agree with Pete and whole heartedly endorse the green flight suit only as a convenient way to keep my knees from getting sunburned as opposed to shorts and the best pockets layout to fly with 



Herb

Dr. Herb Coussons, MD

drc(at)wscare.com

2641 Development Drive

Green Bay, WI  54311

Cell 920-639-8434

Work 920-338-6868

Fax 920-338-6869





On Jul 29, 2011, at 10:13 AM, Byron Fox wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Now, that's an informed discussion. Thanks, Pete.

 ...Blitz

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 On Jul 29, 2011, at 7:55 AM, "Pete Fowler" <pfdesign1(at)cox.net> wrote:

 

> 

> 

> I have pretty extensive experience with nomex suits in auto racing situations and the military nomex 1-layer suit wouldn't be legal for use in the most amateur of amateur racing series in the U.S. Ironically, these same series require a fuel-cell, on-board extinguishers and fires are extremely rare.

> 

> The minimum protection for a car with an estimated evacuation of 10 seconds (good luck with that) is 2-layers, that can either be a quilted 2-layer suit or a 1-layer suit + nomex (or, Carbon-X, Kevlar, or PBI) underwear. That also includes nomex socks, fire resistant shoes, nomex gloves and nomex balaclavas (and nomex lined helmets). Note that the 1-layer suit + underwear combination was tested in 1977 and actually provided protection for less than 8 seconds before 2nd degree burns occurred. Modern SFI rated 1-layer suits plus nomex (or equivalent) underwear can protect for up to 9.5 seconds. Note the underwear alone adds 2-3 seconds of protection.

> 

> Most higher-spec racing series require at least 3 "layers" which can consist of a 3-layer suit or 2-layer suit + nomex (or, Carbon-X, Kevlar, or PBI) underwear plus all the other nomex stuff. Note the quilting of the suit and the spaces between layers provide significant gains in protection and are very important components in fire protection. Drag racing (where fire is common and egress difficult) requires even higher levels of fire protection.

> 

> 3-layer suits with full equipment can protect a driver against being burned in a fire for several seconds but any exposed skin (typically around the eyes where the ballaclava doesn't cover) will get burned. The thinner 2-layer nomex gloves typically result in 2nd degree burns to the hands.

> 

> Cool suits are great, remember you have to have a cooler full of iced water and a pump to make that work. They basically circulate cool water around your chest and keep your core cooler.

> 

> I've raced with 3-layers of nomex at up to 116 degrees ambeint (and 140 degrees cockpit) and without fluid replacement, meaningful dehydration sets in within about 20 minutes (regardless of how much fluid was consumed prior to driving). Nearly all race cars now have on-board hydration systems (remote bottles with pumps to a drinking tube).

> 

> I often wear the nomex flight suit but only believe that it offers decorative and pratical benefits and no meaningful fire protection (at all). Without multi-layers, quilted suits, fire proof gloves, socks, shoes and face protection, that green suit isn't going to do anything for you. That having been said, it's better than shorts and a T-shirt because at least in the case of a flash fire around the plane, you won't instantly get burned.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347997#347997

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

CD 2.0

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: G Tolerance and Hydration

---

Last edited by CD 2.0 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:45 pm; edited 3 times in total

CD 2.0

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: G Tolerance and Hydration

Nomex is a flame resistant meta aramid material developed by DuPont in the 60's. A company with over 60,000 employes and more than 32 billion in revenues... these numbers should be sufficient to keep innovation going. 

A good example is Carbon X. Carbon X, was developed a decade a go by a racecar cylinder heads maker, who hired an engineer in Taiwan and spent just about $ 1 million US dollars experimenting with different blends that would strengthen the fabric... Despite the strengthening fibers, CarbonX is still as soft as a pair of socks and even wicks moisture away from the skin. 

Nomex carbonises when exposed to flame - becomes black and brittle but doesn't "immediately" disintegrate... CarbonX is made from material that has already carbonised... so there is less physical change when exposed to fire. When exposed to high heat again, CarbonX fiber continue to char from the outside in.  Also expand well beyond original size, crowding out the oxygen needed to sustain a fire and won't burst into flames, even after being exposed to fire for two minutes.  Eventually the whole fiber turns to carbon and becomes useless, but by that time, presumably, the wearer has gotten to safety. 

It seems like fire protection standards for the aviation industries are considerably lower than those imposed by SFI and the car racing communities. Would this have something to do with production savings for companies like Dupont? ... or is due to the fact that there are more profitable markets to focus on? ... would this have something to do with the result of higher standards and requirements imposed by SFI? 

Whatever is the reason, the most can be done at this point is trying to look for venues to update the existing aviation/military fire protection standards to those proven to be safer SFI ones. 

Carl 

 	  viperdoc(at)mindspring.co wrote: 	
		  This group would not be willing to pay the cost it would take to market the kind of system for the protection you are asking for. That was proven with the CO scrubber system.

Doc

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 28, 2011, at 9:33 PM, "CD 2.0" <dbowie2007> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Brian, excellent point.   It makes complete sense.   Hopefully a manufacture can come up with the best of both worlds, fire protection with cooling capabilities or lighter, thinner materials to prevent body overheating.  

 I believe there is a profitable enough market in the aviation industry to keep innovation and bring to production flight suits with similar qualities of those that comply and exceed SFI standards... or who knows... we may all have to look like Nascar or F1 drivers in military airplanes... 

 Carl 

 brian(at)lloyd.com wrote:

> 

> You know, when you really analyze this, you see that the two problems, fire protection and body cooling, are mutually exclusive. You really need to take another look at how you want to deal with the problem. The "perfect" solution is the one that the race car drivers have adopted: full, multi-layer fire protection with a separate, active cooling system (cool shirt). If you aren't going to go that way you may actually find that, in terms of total risk reduction, shorts and a t-shirt are indeed the lower-risk compromise.

dabear(at)devere.us
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:50 am Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

Jimmy flew with them last year, but not this year.  That was from some of the pilots.  Don’t know why.

 

Bear

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Coussons

Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 10:42 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: G Tolerance and Hydration

 

It looks like they use something heavier than the typical used military issue.  They use something heavier - like a NASCAR race type outfit.

 



Jimmy?  Still on the list.  After OSH, I'll call him.



 



Herb



 



 



 

Dr. Herb Coussons, MD



drc(at)wscare.com (drc(at)wscare.com)



2641 Development Drive



Green Bay, WI  54311



Cell 920-639-8434



Work 920-338-6868



Fax 920-338-6869

 



 

 



 

On Jul 27, 2011, at 11:50 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:





 

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Herb Coussons <drc(at)wscare.com (drc(at)wscare.com)> wrote:

The cool shirt was also promoted by the Aeroshell team.

They also wear flight suits, but recognize the debilitating effects of heat and dehydration on G-tolerance.

 



Interesting. Do they wear multiple layers of nomex? That seems to be the key.



 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

For grins I weighed, flew with Sergei for 1hr 10mins and re-weighed.  



Lost 2.3 pounds !!  Just over one liter.  



(All sweat - no caca !!)



	


 



No surprise at all. Makes sense to me.



 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA) 	  Quote: 	
		    href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	




 

 	  Quote: 	
		     	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7 	  Quote: 	
		   	
8 	  Quote: 	
		   	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
3

  [quote][b]

Pete Fowler

Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 76
Location: California

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: G Tolerance and Hydration

To continue this a little, I compared my SFI 3-layer nomex racing suit to my Mil-spec CWU-27/P flight suit:



Note the quilting and there are 3-layers of nomex in the racing suit (on left and flight suit on right):





Now here's something interesting. My nomex underwear (which is 1-layer) which adds 2-3 seconds of protection is actually thicker than the flight suit! My guess is that these suits may protect against flash-burns during ejection (and that would be about it).



(nomex underwear on left, flight suit on right):

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:55 am Post subject: G Tolerance and Hydration

Pete,

That is all they were intended for. .3-.4 sec. Of sitting with the rocket motor lighting around you before you go up the rail. Sorry, I have forgotten the exact length of time they are intended to offer protection but it is a very short time of exposure.

Doc

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 2, 2011, at 12:08 AM, "Pete Fowler" <pfdesign1(at)cox.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 To continue this a little, I compared my SFI 3-layer nomex racing suit to my Mil-spec CWU-27/P flight suit:

 

 Note the quilting and there are 3-layers of nomex in the racing suit (on left and flight suit on right):

 

 

 Now here's something interesting. My nomex underwear (which is 1-layer) which adds 2-3 seconds of protection is actually thicker than the flight suit! My guess is that these suits may protect against flash-burns during ejection (and that would be about it).

 

 (nomex underwear on left, flight suit on right):

 

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348339#348339

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum