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jill(at)m-14p.com
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 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:53 am Post subject: M-14P & OIl |
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Group,
I would like to correct Eric Wobschall’s post:
“I would also point out that most of the radial engine shops seem to use and recommend
the XC 25-60, including M-14P, Inc.. It seems that most of the vintage
radials use it. I have used it in both of my 52s although I don't claim to put”…..
To the contrary, we at M-14P, Inc. do not recommend Phillips 25W60. We are seeing problems with stuck valves and in all cases, the customers have been using Phillips 25W60. We have had one customer that had an exhaust valve stick open and it broke in flight. The typical scenario is that the engine will be running fine and then it gets rough for a spell and then clears. No rhyme or reason as to when it may occur.
I have been researching this subject for an upcoming article. In the meantime, I received this link from an astute customer: http://www.precisionengines.com/pdf/oilBulletin.pdf
Additionally, customers mixing Marvel Mystery Oil or CamGuard with the Phillips do not seem to be encountering the stuck valve problem.
Again, M-14P Inc. does not endorse the use of Phillips 25W60 in the M-14P engine.
Jill Gernetzke
M-14P, Inc.
[quote][b]
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radiopicture
Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:17 am Post subject: M-14P & OIl |
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Apologies, Jill.
I didn't mean to represent M-14P, Inc, or confuse anyone about this. I do remember a conversation we had regarding break-in where I thought you said you were using the XC 25-60. Maybe this is has changed since that conversation.
On Jul 30, 2011, at 9:49 AM, Jill Gernetzke wrote:
| Quote: | Group,
I would like to correct Eric Wobschall’s post:
“I would also point out that most of the radial engine shops seem to use and recommend
the XC 25-60, including M-14P, Inc.. It seems that most of the vintage
radials use it. I have used it in both of my 52s although I don't claim to put”…..
To the contrary, we at M-14P, Inc. do not recommend Phillips 25W60. We are seeing problems with stuck valves and in all cases, the customers have been using Phillips 25W60. We have had one customer that had an exhaust valve stick open and it broke in flight. The typical scenario is that the engine will be running fine and then it gets rough for a spell and then clears. No rhyme or reason as to when it may occur.
I have been researching this subject for an upcoming article. In the meantime, I received this link from an astute customer: http://www.precisionengines.com/pdf/oilBulletin.pdf
Additionally, customers mixing Marvel Mystery Oil or CamGuard with the Phillips do not seem to be encountering the stuck valve problem.
Again, M-14P Inc. does not endorse the use of Phillips 25W60 in the M-14P engine.
Jill Gernetzke
M-14P, Inc.
| Quote: |
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CD 2.0
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: M-14P & OIl |
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Which oils drips faster from the engine?... The problem starts when the engine stops leaking... if a radial engine stops leaking, then it's out of oil, and that's not good news.
Multi grade oil drips faster from the engine parts and remains much thinner and more easily pourable at room temperature than single grade oil, unless this has changed recently and manufactures have come up with new a combination of ingredients that prevents or change the existing thinner and pourable conditions of multi grade oils at room temperature. If something new like this has been done... I'm all ears and would look forward to some feedback from certified sources on this.
However long it takes for the oil stripping process to occur... the slowest the leaking process occurs the better for the engine and so far and to my knowledge, single engine oils are thicker and drip slower than multi grade oils (in any brand) at ordinary room temperature.
Major radial engine overhaul shops like Precision engines have corroborated this. They even go further by writing bulletins for their clients with the reasons why they firmly recommend single grade oils like Aeroshell 100 for the break in process and Aeroshell w100 for the rest of the engine life... and not only because the dripping off capabilities or the thickness advantages or disadvantages at room temperatures, their recommendations are based in aftermath of thousands of overhauls and repairs. I have seen service history records from another major shop, reporting how much less favorable an engine history is after being operated on "synthetic blends or semi-synthetic" oil products and it's encouraged to use Mineral Based (AD) Oils only, single over multi-viscosity unless serious sub-freezing conditions require the use of a multi grade oil for better starting operation.
I'm not saying Phillips xc 25W-60 is a synthetic oil, just saying that synthetic oils are at the bottom on the list of all oils. Phillips xc 25w-60 is a mineral based, ashless dispersant (AD) multigrade oil.
Like Eric, many of us thought Phillips xc 20/60 is one of the top choices for radial engines. I'm glad that this topic has been brought to the table and I'm grateful to Jill at M14p engines for her report on how they are seeing problems with stuck valves in customer radial engines who have been using Phillips xc 25W60.
We look forward to the upcoming article on this.
Carl
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radiopicture
Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:37 pm Post subject: M-14P & OIl |
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Carl:
All good info. However, is the XC 25-60 AD? I was under the impression it was not, and it's because it's non-detergent that it can be used for break-in. Now that I'm looking on that Phillips link, it's not really clear. Let me know if you can determine that. Thanks. -Eric
On Jul 30, 2011, at 9:14 PM, CD 2.0 wrote:
| Quote: |
Which oils drips faster from the engine?... The problem starts when the engine stops leaking... if a radial engine stops leaking, then it's out of oil, and that's not good news.
Multi grade oil drips faster from the engine parts and remains much thinner and more easily pourable at room temperature than single grade oil, unless this has changed recently and manufactures have come up with new a combination of ingredients that prevents or change the existing thinner and pourable conditions of multi grade oils at room temperature. If something new like this has been done... I'm all ears and would look forward to some feedback from certified sources on this.
However long it takes for the oil stripping process to occur... the slowest the leaking process occurs the better for the engine and so far and to my knowledge, single engine oils are thicker and drip slower than multi grade oils (in any brand) at ordinary room temperature.
Major radial engine overhaul shops like Precision engines have corroborated this. They even go further by writing bulletins for their clients with the reasons why they firmly recommend single grade oils like Aeroshell 100 for the break in process and Aeroshell w100 for the rest of the engine life... and not only because the dripping off capabilities or the thickness advantages or disadvantages at room temperatures, their recommendations are based in aftermath of thousands of overhauls and repairs. I have seen service history records from another major shop, reporting how much less favorable an engine history is after being operated on "synthetic blends or semi-synthetic" oil products and it's encouraged to use Mineral Based (AD) Oils only, single over multi-viscosity unless serious sub-freezing conditions require the use of a multi grade oil for better starting operation.
I'm not saying Phillips xc 25W-60 is a synthetic oil, just saying that synthetic oils are at the bottom on the list of all oils. Phillips xc 25w-60 is a mineral based, ashless dispersant (AD) multigrade oil.
Like Eric, many of us thought Phillips xc 20/60 is one of the top choices for radial engines. I'm glad that this topic has been brought to the table and I'm grateful to Jill at M14p engines for her report on how they are seeing problems with stuck valves in customer radial engines who have been using Phillips xc 25W60.
We look forward to the upcoming article on this.
Carl
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348100#348100
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: M-14P & OIl |
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On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 6:14 PM, CD 2.0 <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com (dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Multi grade oil drips faster from the engine parts and remains much thinner and more easily pourable at room temperature than single grade oil, unless this has changed recently and manufactures have come up with new a combination of ingredients that prevents or change the existing thinner and pourable conditions of multi grade oils at room temperature. If something new like this has been done... I'm all ears and would look forward to some feedback from certified sources on this.
However long it takes for the oil stripping process to occur... the slowest the leaking process occurs the better for the engine and so far and to my knowledge, single engine oils are thicker and drip slower than multi grade oils (in any brand) at ordinary room temperature.
|
It is not as simple as that. Yes, a higher-viscosity oil will take longer to pour through an orifice. (That is how viscosity is tested!) But that does not mean that the more viscous oil remains on the parts significantly longer. There is a chemical bonding process that takes place as well that has nothing to do with viscosity. You can see it with other materials. A drop of water will adhere to something because of the polar nature of its molecule. It doesn't drain down. And the two materials involved determine the behavior.
Some oils have additives that increase this bonding process. Yes, they drain down but a film remains on the parts. This film protects the parts from oxidation and may even be sufficient to provide initial lubrication. But as far as I know, these additives are only in synthetic and semi-synthetic oils. Exxon touts this capability of their semi-synthetic "Exxon Elite". See: http://www.exxonmobil.com/lubes/exxonmobil/emal/files/controlling_rust.pdf.
So mere viscosity is not a sufficient indication of the ability of the oil to protect the parts from corrosion over a period of time.
You know, no one has even suggested why a radial engine is different from a horizontally-opposed engine from the point of view of an oil. That might be a useful thing to do in an attempt to understand why one oil or another might work better rather than just promulgating hearsay and anecdotal evidence.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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radiopicture
Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject: M-14P & OIl |
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My understanding is that it's the configuration of the oil journals.
On Jul 30, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
[quote] On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 6:14 PM, CD 2.0 <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Multi grade oil drips faster from the engine parts and remains much thinner and more easily pourable at room temperature than single grade oil, unless this has changed recently and manufactures have come up with new a combination of ingredients that prevents or change the existing thinner and pourable conditions of multi grade oils at room temperature. If something new like this has been done... I'm all ears and would look forward to some feedback from certified sources on this.
However long it takes for the oil stripping process to occur... the slowest the leaking process occurs the better for the engine and so far and to my knowledge, single engine oils are thicker and drip slower than multi grade oils (in any brand) at ordinary room temperature.
It is not as simple as that. Yes, a higher-viscosity oil will take longer to pour through an orifice. (That is how viscosity is tested!) But that does not mean that the more viscous oil remains on the parts significantly longer. There is a chemical bonding process that takes place as well that has nothing to do with viscosity. You can see it with other materials. A drop of water will adhere to something because of the polar nature of its molecule. It doesn't drain down. And the two materials involved determine the behavior.
Some oils have additives that increase this bonding process. Yes, they drain down but a film remains on the parts. This film protects the parts from oxidation and may even be sufficient to provide initial lubrication. But as far as I know, these additives are only in synthetic and semi-synthetic oils. Exxon touts this capability of their semi-synthetic "Exxon Elite". See: http://www.exxonmobil.com/lubes/exxonmobil/emal/files/controlling_rust.pdf
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CD 2.0
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: M-14P & OIl |
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Eric yep... Phillips XC 25W-60 is multigrade ashless dispersant (AD) mineral with SAE 25W (low temperature viscosity for start-up and quick lubrication) which is ideal for cool weather performance.
Is also full bodied SAE 60 for protection at high engine temperatures. I believe consumption is lower than the Aeroshell W100, but the price is higher.
It's valid for the "Break-in" process, but top shops like Precison Engines recommend Aeroshell 100 for this.
It's exclusively designed for radial and other aviation engines that require 120 grade oils.
Carl
| radiopicture wrote: | Carl:
All good info. However, is the XC 25-60 AD? I was under the impression it was not, and it's because it's non-detergent that it can be used for break-in. Now that I'm looking on that Phillips link, it's not really clear. Let me know if you can determine that. Thanks. -Eric
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CD 2.0
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: M-14P & OIl |
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... actually a quick and easy way to find out if an oil is AD is by the "W" (ashless dispersant)
In this case Phillips XC 25W-60.
Carl
| radiopicture wrote: | Carl:
All good info. However, is the XC 25-60 AD? I was under the impression it was not, and it's because it's non-detergent that it can be used for break-in. Now that I'm looking on that Phillips link, it's not really clear. Let me know if you can determine that. Thanks. -Eric
|
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:52 am Post subject: M-14P & OIl |
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This is a question not a statement. I thought flat heads were more prone to corrosion of the cam shaft because of where it sits in the case.
I have always poured a pint of Cam Lube in the oil when I did an oil change on the Lycoming to hopefully prevent that since it is seldom flown now
Because of the YAKs.
I have a M 14 that sat on my hanger floor for about 5 years with only the oil in it that was left in it when it came off the airframe.
I just bore scoped the cylinders to look at their condition after that long with anticipation of scavenge iy for parts. I found a small among of rust on
the top three cylinder walls ( 9, 1, 2). The other 7 were clean as a whistle. Nothing on the gears in nose case I could acess and see. It had
Initially been run on Aeroshell 100 but was switched to Phillips 25W60. Phillips is what she was running when it came off the aircraft.
Nothing scientific in this statement just anticetal observations.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 30, 2011, at 9:11 PM, Eric Wobschall <eric(at)buffaloskyline.com> wrote:
[quote] My understanding is that it's the configuration of the oil journals.
On Jul 30, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 6:14 PM, CD 2.0 <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
> Multi grade oil drips faster from the engine parts and remains much thinner and more easily pourable at room temperature than single grade oil, unless this has changed recently and manufactures have come up with new a combination of ingredients that prevents or change the existing thinner and pourable conditions of multi grade oils at room temperature. If something new like this has been done... I'm all ears and would look forward to some feedback from certified sources on this.
>
> However long it takes for the oil stripping process to occur... the slowest the leaking process occurs the better for the engine and so far and to my knowledge, single engine oils are thicker and drip slower than multi grade oils (in any brand) at ordinary room temperature.
>
> It is not as simple as that. Yes, a higher-viscosity oil will take longer to pour through an orifice. (That is how viscosity is tested!) But that does not mean that the more viscous oil remains on the parts significantly longer. There is a chemical bonding process that takes place as well that has nothing to do with viscosity. You can see it with other materials. A drop of water will adhere to something because of the polar nature of its molecule. It doesn't drain down. And the two materials involved determine the behavior.
>
> Some oils have additives that increase this bonding process. Yes, they drain down but a film remains on the parts. This film protects the parts from oxidation and may even be sufficient to provide initial lubrication. But as far as I know, these additives are only in synthetic and semi-synthetic oils. Exxon touts this capability of their semi-synthetic "Exxon Elite". See: http://www.exxonmobil.com/lubes/exxonmobil/emal/files/controlling_rust.pdf.
>
> So mere viscosity is not a sufficient indication of the ability of the oil to protect the parts from corrosion over a period of time.
>
> You know, no one has even suggested why a radial engine is different from a horizontally-opposed engine from the point of view of an oil. That might be a useful thing to do in an attempt to understand why one oil or another might work better rather than just promulgating hearsay and anecdotal evidence
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