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Okanogan Lew
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 45
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 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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Guys, what is the recommended recovery procedure for an inverted flat spin in a CJ6? Thanks.
Paul lewis
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Okanogan Lew <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Okanogan Lew" <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)>
Guys, what is the recommended recovery procedure for an inverted flat spin in a CJ6? Thanks.
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How could you get a CJ6A into an inverted flat spin? Before it could develop you would have no power (unless you have added an inverted fuel system). Not sure how you would get it to flatten out without power. Not to mention that most CJ6A's won't even stay in a spin. Most upright spins devolve into a spiral.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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okanoganlew(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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This question is hypothetical driven by my curiosity.
Paul
On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:
[quote]
On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Okanogan Lew <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Okanogan Lew" <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)>
Guys, what is the recommended recovery procedure for an inverted flat spin in a CJ6? Thanks.
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How could you get a CJ6A into an inverted flat spin? Before it could develop you would have no power (unless you have added an inverted fuel system). Not sure how you would get it to flatten out without power. Not to mention that most CJ6A's won't even stay in a spin. Most upright spins devolve into a spiral.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
[url=tel:%2B1.767.617.1365]+1.767.617.1365[/url] (Dominica)
[url=tel:%2B1.916.877.5067]+1.916.877.5067[/url] (USA)
| Quote: |
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Paul Lewis <okanoganlew(at)gmail.com (okanoganlew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | This question is hypothetical driven by my curiosity.
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Ah.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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k7wx
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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Two guys in our area found themselves in just such a situation and managed to recover after dumping the gear. Shifted the CG just enough to make a difference. Hardly a recommended procedure, but it worked in this one case.
On Jul 31, 2011, at 3:14 PM, Okanogan Lew wrote:
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CD 2.0
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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Wouldn't an inverted flat spin be possible if a CJ6 was upgraded with an inverted fuel and oil system, an M14P or the 400hp M14PF engine, and a 3-blade Whirlwind or MT Aerobatic propeller?
I believe with this added power, the rate of climb doubles... top speed goes up... aerobatic vertical performance enters a whole new dimension.
Assuming the plane Paul's talking about has all or at least the inverted fuel-oil system and the M14p, I would think it's possible.
Carl
| Okanogan Lew wrote: | Guys, what is the recommended recovery procedure for an inverted flat spin in a CJ6? Thanks.
Paul lewis |
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 8:22 PM, CD 2.0 <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com (dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "CD 2.0" <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com (dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com)>
Wouldn't an inverted flat spin be possible if a CJ6 was upgraded with an inverted fuel and oil system, an M14P or the 400hp M14PF engine, and a 3-blade Whirlwind or MT Aerobatic propeller?
I believe with this added power, the rate of climb doubles... top speed goes up... aerobatic vertical performance enters a whole new dimension.
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Yes, but then it is a substantially different airplane. I don't know of any CJ6As with inverted fuel and oil.
| Quote: | Assuming the plane Paul's talking about has all or at least the inverted fuel-oil system and the M14p, I would think it's possible.
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Oh, I am sure it is possible for a modified CJ6A. And once one like that exists we can go out and verify that it recovers normally from an inverted flat spin. It is just that I don't think there is any useful data yet from which to speculate.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:16 am Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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If I remember right the CJ-6 has been in an inverted flat spin. This was done at MTW a number of year ago by Sirgay with Keith Harbor in his CJ. I remember Keith's airplane coming back covered in oil.
At the time Keith's plane was a standard 6A.
You can flat spin a CJ quite easily positive by merely leaving the power up during a spin entry. Recovery is a little disconcerting at first but straight forward. On releasing the back pressure on the stick, you'll find the stick will not move toward neutral but will stay in the aft position. It requires a push of about 3 lb. toward the neutral for the recovery. Took a good half turn or more to recover. Been there done that. I've been told by Tony Smith, that a nose on the horizon flat spin can be done "just make sure you have lots of height."
There are a few guys out there who have "explored" the real range of the CJ. They however don't prowl this list.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
[quote][b]
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:50 am Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 5:13 AM, <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | If I remember right the CJ-6 has been in an inverted flat spin. This was done at MTW a number of year ago by Sirgay with Keith Harbor in his CJ. I remember Keith's airplane coming back covered in oil.
At the time Keith's plane was a standard 6A.
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Huh. I wouldn't have guessed that one could keep the power up or that one would WANT to keep the power up as oil pressure would go away in 5 seconds.
| Quote: |
You can flat spin a CJ quite easily positive by merely leaving the power up during a spin entry. Recovery is a little disconcerting at first but straight forward. On releasing the back pressure on the stick, you'll find the stick will not move toward neutral but will stay in the aft position. It requires a push of about 3 lb. toward the neutral for the recovery. Took a good half turn or more to recover. Been there done that. I've been told by Tony Smith, that a nose on the horizon flat spin can be done "just make sure you have lots of height."
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The CJ6As that I have [tried to] spin did not stay in a spin. G forces and airspeed built up so the aircraft was actually in a spiral. Could be CG was too far forward.
If you can get the airplane to spin I would expect it would be able to flat-spin. It is the inverted flat spin that threw me.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:55 am Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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I’m surprised that the CJ only needs 3 pounds forward pressure.
In a flat spin you are descending vertically at quite a high speed,and of course the airflow will push the elevator up,and so the stick back.
The Yak 52 CAN need up to 90 pounds [yes,90!!] to get the stick forward from a well-developed flat spin,and will often need both hands.
Also,I’m surprised that the CJ will recover in ½ a turn-if fully developed in the 52 it CAN be 3,and even 4!!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: 01 August 2011 15:46
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6
On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 5:13 AM, <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
If I remember right the CJ-6 has been in an inverted flat spin. This was done at MTW a number of year ago by Sirgay with Keith Harbor in his CJ. I remember Keith's airplane coming back covered in oil.
At the time Keith's plane was a standard 6A.
Huh. I wouldn't have guessed that one could keep the power up or that one would WANT to keep the power up as oil pressure would go away in 5 seconds.
| Quote: |
You can flat spin a CJ quite easily positive by merely leaving the power up during a spin entry. Recovery is a little disconcerting at first but straight forward. On releasing the back pressure on the stick, you'll find the stick will not move toward neutral but will stay in the aft position. It requires a push of about 3 lb. toward the neutral for the recovery. Took a good half turn or more to recover. Been there done that. I've been told by Tony Smith, that a nose on the horizon flat spin can be done "just make sure you have lots of height."
|
The CJ6As that I have [tried to] spin did not stay in a spin. G forces and airspeed built up so the aircraft was actually in a spiral. Could be CG was too far forward.
If you can get the airplane to spin I would expect it would be able to flat-spin. It is the inverted flat spin that threw me.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA) | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
0123456789
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
[quote][b]
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:17 am Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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In a message dated 8/1/2011 12:55:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com writes:
| Quote: |
I’m surprised that the CJ only needs 3 pounds forward pressure.
In a flat spin you are descending vertically at quite a high speed,and of course the airflow will push the elevator up,and so the stick back.
The Yak 52 CAN need up to 90 pounds [yes,90!!] to get the stick forward from a well-developed flat spin,and will often need both hands. |
How much force may have been a "perceived" amount by me in my case. You know - like in a sudden panic a man can left a car. It wasn't 90 lbs I'm fairly certain.
| Quote: |
Also,I’m surprised that the CJ will recover in ½ a turn-if fully developed in the 52 it CAN be 3,and even 4!! |
In my particular case, I had inadvertently entered the spin and the spin was not fully developed that's for sure. That may have been the reason for the light stick push and the quicker recovery.
But here is one more for you. In 1972 at the World Acrobatic Competition in England, I watched what I think was a German single seat Zlin, do a flat spin. I don't remember who or which country the pilot represented and this was not part of the competition but an exhibition for Prince Charles. He entered it with the engine OFF and the prop stopped. This was the same year that the late Neal William (England's champ) landed his Zlin after the wing had folded. The flat spin was fully developed and if I remember right he entered and recovered from it with the prop stopped.
That was quite a day. I watched Bob Hernidean fly the length of the runway inverted in a Pitts, doing out side snaps from inverted to inverted-in opposite directions. At the end of the runway, he pushed into an inverted climb, at the top of it, he closed the throttle and pulled back for the landing. JUST before touch down about 30 feet above the runway, he did a positive snap than touch down.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
| Quote: |
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW |
[quote][b]
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:33 am Post subject: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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* INVERTED FLAT SPINS in a CJ-6 !
WAOW !!! We want to come and watch !
* We have done A LOT OF (Upright) FLAT SPINS in the Yak-52.
* Stock Yak 52, 3 bladed-prop Yak 52, M-14PF, M-14PF AND 3 blades,
solo, with GIB, etc ...
* With Yaks on any Register ... 
UK CAA (G-xxxx), ZU-xxx (South Africa), N (FAA), RAxxxx (FLA),
RF (Russia), LY (Lithuania), EC (Spain), ... etc.
http://www.civa-results.com/2008/WYAC08/EtienneVerhellen_135563.htm
http://www.civa-results.com/2009/WYAC09/02YAK021_EtienneVerhellen.htm
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/results/2006/john_mclean_trophy.htm
http://www.aerobatics.co.za/Gauteng%202010/04INT012.htm
http://www.aerobatics.co.za/Gauteng%202011/pilot_p006s06.htm
http://bac.msdp.eu/sites/default/files/file/RESULTS%20BONAC%202011.pdf
http://www.vliegeniseenkunst.nl/wrapper/resultaten/EtienneVerhellen_1402013.htm
Etc ...
* Goes really REALLY FLAT behind a M-14PF and 3 blades at full power 
Requires slightly different technique for most efficient recovery ... and Richard is of course correct : it does require quite a lot of conviction moving the stick forward - using both hands and arms fully stretched - and indeed recovery will take a few turns if you went (intentionally of course) into a full developed upright flat spin.
NOW : INVERTED FLAT SPINS !!!
=====================
Well, we've done quite a few in Yaks but find them quite hard to maintain
because of centrifugal force.
I have written about this before. Read point 6. below :
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223644&highlight=#223644
Just picture this if you have never done inverted spinning before :
you will have full power to flatten the spin, full rudder, forward stick, out-spin aileron (same side as rudder when inverted) and you will be upside-down !!!
Just try a few turns of plain vanilla Inverted SPINS (with power OFF) to warm up : you will hopefully understand what I mean :
After a few turns of inverted spinning, the centrifugal force becomes quite significant (especially with my big body in the back seat) ... now, just imagine yourself "out-spinning", "unloading" and adding full power to accelerate and flatten the spin !
It becomes quite hard to maintain control pressures on the stick and rudder to stay in a fully developed INVERTED flat spins.
I will do one one with you if you are really committed but usually after demonstrating the upright flat spins, people are "happy" enough. 
Altough you can end up at the beginning of a flat spin by screwing up a stall turn (hammerhead) - and indeed it is actually the best way to start an INTENTIONAL upright flat spin - to continue into a full flat spin requires quite precise control movements.
On the other hand, I really do not see HOW a pilot would UNintentionally end up into a fully developed INVERTED flat spin ! It takes dedication to get there !
As far as Aerobatic flying is concerned, the Yak-52 is superior to a CJ-6.
I know, I have flown both. Just look at the wings. Straight (but not symetrical) for the Yak. Dihedral for the CJ. Not ideal when inverted.
Yaks roll slightly faster.
No disrespect for the Nanchang. It's just the way it is. The CJ-6 is a GREAT LOOKING aircraft. 
"Aerobatically" the 50 is superior to the 52, the 55 to the 50 and any Sukhois to all the Yaks, etc ...
They are things I can do in a Yak I cannot do in a CJ.
And things I am (very) HAPPY doing in a Yak (Lomcevaks, upright FLAT SPINs, Tailslides, inverted turning, outside rollers, etc) that I would not try in a CJ.
My point is : I do not really understand how a CJ pilot would UNintentionallly end up in an INVERTED flat spin.
NOW, if YOU can fly consistent INVERTED flat spins in a CJ-6, we are very VERY impressed. And we would love to come and watch.
But nevertheless, to answer Paul's initial question :
"Guys, what is the recovery procedure for an inverted flat spin in a CJ-6 ?"
The answer is :
1. Leave the power on if you are positive about what you are doing.
Otherwise power OFF.
2. Change rudder.
3. stick forward (remember you have unloaded when entering the spin to
accelerate it).
4. stick to the other side (remember you have applied out-spin aileron to
flatten the spin) / and addes full power !
5. stick Back (maintain stick in the back corner and full opposite rudder
until recovery).
6. 2. and 3, 4, 5 at the same time !
Good luck ! 
A plain vanilla (power off) inverted spin is just :
1. change rudder AND
2. bring the stick back at the same time.
Exit is very easy and faster than for an upright spin.
Remember that if you do just one turn of inverted spin you will exit in the opposite direction ... unless you push out of the vertical ! Etc ETC ...
Cheers,
Etienne.
Enough talking ! Let's go FLYING !
PS : I hope Richard (Goode)
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=82956&highlight=european+certification
and Mark ("Bitter" !)
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=82933&highlight=european+certification
will agree with me on THIS ONE :
Get proper aerobatic training from a Flight Instructor (experienced on type !).
Tower, this is Ghost Rider requesting a flyby !
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tchikedou/1570671653/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22367737(at)N02/2156802294/
http://www.vliegeniseenkunst.nl/node/224
http://www.pilotweb.aero/content/pilotlist/view_pilot.aspx?id=95046
http://bac.msdp.eu/permanent-training
http://www.planecheck.com/eu/index.asp?ent=dv&id=6711
http://www.aerobaticsaircraft.com/105-yakrobatics-namur-belgium/#comments
http://www.yak52.fr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18:janie&catid=29:the-cms&Itemid=38
Of course, I have attached a few pics 
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bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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the yak 55 does it differently
the stick needs to go up to right shoulder and power on 90 pounds of force to get it in there
ask timofeyenko about it he will tell you
thats why inverted spin training is a must for big radials
at the top of the hammerhead its easy to get into one if careless cross control slow high angle of attack etc.
cheers
ak
From: "cjpilot710(at)aol.com" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, August 1, 2011 2:15:16 PM
Subject: Re: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6
In a message dated 8/1/2011 12:55:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com writes:
| Quote: |
I’m surprised that the CJ only needs 3 pounds forward pressure.
In a flat spin you are descending vertically at quite a high speed,and of course the airflow will push the elevator up,and so the stick back.
The Yak 52 CAN need up to 90 pounds [yes,90!!] to get the stick forward from a well-developed flat spin,and will often need both hands. |
How much force may have been a "perceived" amount by me in my case. You know - like in a sudden panic a man can left a car. It wasn't 90 lbs I'm fairly certain.
| Quote: |
Also,I’m surprised that the CJ will recover in ½ a turn-if fully developed in the 52 it CAN be 3,and even 4!! |
In my particular case, I had inadvertently entered the spin and the spin was not fully developed that's for sure. That may have been the reason for the light stick push and the quicker recovery.
But here is one more for you. In 1972 at the World Acrobatic Competition in England, I watched what I think was a German single seat Zlin, do a flat spin. I don't remember who or which country the pilot represented and this was not part of the competition but an exhibition for Prince Charles. He entered it with the engine OFF and the prop stopped. This was the same year that the late Neal William (England's champ) landed his Zlin after the wing had folded. The flat spin was fully developed and if I remember right he entered and recovered from it with the prop stopped.
That was quite a day. I watched Bob Hernidean fly the length of the runway inverted in a Pitts, doing out side snaps from inverted to inverted-in opposite directions. At the end of the runway, he pushed into an inverted climb, at the top of it, he closed the throttle and pulled back for the landing. JUST before touch down about 30 feet above the runway, he did a positive snap than touch down.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
| Quote: |
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW |
[quote][b][b]
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dabear(at)devere.us
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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Cross control slow high AoA…. Isn’t that the hammer head execution?  J
The CG in my CJ6A is at the forward limit with just me in the plane. I will NOT do an inverted spin, it comes out into a spiral. It will do an upright spin but it is ugly (much like the pilot). It requires the controls be full aft and rudder all the way over. Any release (just a bit) and she comes right out.   I’ve only done up to 3 turn spins.
Jim talked about upright flat spin.  I’ve not tried since putting on the M14P, but it wouldn’t go flat for me with the Housai. I’m going to go WAY high and try it.
Bear ç=== Not an expert, not even on the yak-list.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dr Andres Katz
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 3:40 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6
the yak 55 does it differently
the stick needs to go up to right shoulder and power on 90 pounds of force to get it in there
ask timofeyenko about it he will tell you
thats why inverted spin training is a must for big radials
at the top of the hammerhead its easy to get into one if careless cross control slow high angle of attack etc.
cheers
ak
From: "cjpilot710(at)aol.com" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, August 1, 2011 2:15:16 PM
Subject: Re: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6
In a message dated 8/1/2011 12:55:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com writes:
| Quote: |
I’m surprised that the CJ only needs 3 pounds forward pressure.
In a flat spin you are descending vertically at quite a high speed,and of course the airflow will push the elevator up,and so the stick back.
The Yak 52 CAN need up to 90 pounds [yes,90!!] to get the stick forward from a well-developed flat spin,and will often need both hands. |
How much force may have been a "perceived" amount by me in my case. You know - like in a sudden panic a man can left a car. It wasn't 90 lbs I'm fairly certain.
| Quote: |
Also,I’m surprised that the CJ will recover in ½ a turn-if fully developed in the 52 it CAN be 3,and even 4!! |
In my particular case, I had inadvertently entered the spin and the spin was not fully developed that's for sure. That may have been the reason for the light stick push and the quicker recovery.
But here is one more for you. In 1972 at the World Acrobatic Competition in England, I watched what I think was a German single seat Zlin, do a flat spin. I don't remember who or which country the pilot represented and this was not part of the competition but an exhibition for Prince Charles. He entered it with the engine OFF and the prop stopped. This was the same year that the late Neal William (England's champ) landed his Zlin after the wing had folded. The flat spin was fully developed and if I remember right he entered and recovered from it with the prop stopped.
That was quite a day. I watched Bob Hernidean fly the length of the runway inverted in a Pitts, doing out side snaps from inverted to inverted-in opposite directions. At the end of the runway, he pushed into an inverted climb, at the top of it, he closed the throttle and pulled back for the landing. JUST before touch down about 30 feet above the runway, he did a positive snap than touch down.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
| Quote: |
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
01234567
[quote][b]
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jochen_p(at)rocketmail.co
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:41 am Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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What do you mean by "2 and 3,4,5" at the same time?
Couldn't you rephrase this in a more structured way, to the point, and without all these unnecesary details please?
Jochen
From: Etienne Verhellen <janie(at)yak52.fr>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 1, 2011 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Etienne Verhellen" <janie(at)yak52.fr (janie(at)yak52.fr)>
* INVERTED FLAT SPINS in a CJ-6 !
WAOW !!! We want to come and watch !
* We have done A LOT OF (Upright) FLAT SPINS in the Yak-52.
* Stock Yak 52, 3 bladed-prop Yak 52, M-14PF, M-14PF AND 3 blades,
solo, with GIB, etc ...
* With Yaks on any Register ...
UK CAA (G-xxxx), ZU-xxx (South Africa), N (FAA), RAxxxx (FLA),
RF (Russia), LY (Lithuania), EC (Spain), ... etc.
http://www.civa-results.com/2008/WYAC08/EtienneVerhellen_135563.htm
http://www.civa-results.com/2009/WYAC09/02YAK021_EtienneVerhellen.htm
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/results/2006/john_mclean_trophy.htm
http://www.aerobatics.co.za/Gauteng%202010/04INT012.htm
http://www.aerobatics.co.za/Gauteng%202011/pilot_p006s06.htm
http://bac.msdp.eu/sites/default/files/file/RESULTS%20BONAC%202011.pdf
http://www.vliegeniseenkunst.nl/wrapper/resultaten/EtienneVerhellen_1402013.htm
Etc ...
* Goes really REALLY FLAT behind a M-14PF and 3 blades at full power [Exclamation]
Requires slightly different technique for most efficient recovery ... and Richard is of course correct : it does require quite a lot of conviction moving the stick forward - using both hands and arms fully stretched - and indeed recovery will take a few turns if you went (intentionally of course) into a full developed upright flat spin.
NOW : INVERTED FLAT SPINS !!!
=====================
Well, we've done quite a few in Yaks but find them quite hard to maintain
because of centrifugal force.
I have written about this before. Read point 6. below :
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223644&highlight=#223644
Just picture this if you have never done inverted spinning before :
you will have full power to flatten the spin, full rudder, forward stick, out-spin aileron (same side as rudder when inverted) and you will be upside-down !!!
Just try a few turns of plain vanilla Inverted SPINS (with power OFF) to warm up : you will hopefully understand what I mean :
After a few turns of inverted spinning, the centrifugal force becomes quite significant (especially with my big body in the back seat) ... now, just imagine yourself "out-spinning", "unloading" and adding full power to accelerate and flatten the spin !
It becomes quite hard to maintain control pressures on the stick and rudder to stay in a fully developed INVERTED flat spins.
I will do one one with you if you are really committed but usually after demonstrating the upright flat spins, people are "happy" enough. [Laughing]
Altough you can end up at the beginning of a flat spin by screwing up a stall turn (hammerhead) - and indeed it is actually the best way to start an INTENTIONAL upright flat spin - to continue into a full flat spin requires quite precise control movements.
On the other hand, I really do not see HOW a pilot would UNintentionally end up into a fully developed INVERTED flat spin ! It takes dedication to get there !
As far as Aerobatic flying is concerned, the Yak-52 is superior to a CJ-6.
I know, I have flown both. Just look at the wings. Straight (but not symetrical) for the Yak. Dihedral for the CJ. Not ideal when inverted.
Yaks roll slightly faster.
No disrespect for the Nanchang. It's just the way it is. The CJ-6 is a GREAT LOOKING aircraft.
"Aerobatically" the 50 is superior to the 52, the 55 to the 50 and any Sukhois to all the Yaks, etc ...
They are things I can do in a Yak I cannot do in a CJ.
And things I am (very) HAPPY doing in a Yak (Lomcevaks, upright FLAT SPINs, Tailslides, inverted turning, outside rollers, etc) that I would not try in a CJ.
My point is : I do not really understand how a CJ pilot would UNintentionallly end up in an INVERTED flat spin.
NOW, if YOU can fly consistent INVERTED flat spins in a CJ-6, we are very VERY impressed. And we would love to come and watch.
But nevertheless, to answer Paul's initial question :
"Guys, what is the recovery procedure for an inverted flat spin in a CJ-6 ?"
The answer is :
1. Leave the power on if you are positive about what you are doing.
Otherwise power OFF.
2. Change rudder.
3. stick forward (remember you have unloaded when entering the spin to
accelerate it).
4. stick to the other side (remember you have applied out-spin aileron to
flatten the spin) / and addes full power !
5. stick Back (maintain stick in the back corner and full opposite rudder
until recovery).
6. 2. and 3, 4, 5 at the same time !
Good luck !
A plain vanilla (power off) inverted spin is just :
1. change rudder AND
2. bring the stick back at the same time.
Exit is very easy and faster than for an upright spin.
Remember that if you do just one turn of inverted spin you will exit in the opposite direction ... unless you push out of the vertical ! Etc ETC ...
Cheers,
Etienne.
Enough talking ! Let's go FLYING !
PS : I hope Richard (Goode)
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=82956&highlight=european+certification
and Mark ("Bitter" !)
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=82933&highlight=european+certification
will agree with me on THIS ONE :
Get proper aerobatic training from a Flight Instructor (experienced on type !).
Tower, this is Ghost Rider requesting a flyby !
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tchikedou/1570671653/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22367737(at)N02/2156802294/
http://www.vliegeniseenkunst.nl/node/224
http://www.pilotweb.aero/content/pilotlist/view_pilot.aspx?id=95046
http://bac.msdp.eu/permanent-training
http://www.planecheck.com/eu/index.asp?ent=dv&id=6711
http://www.aerobaticsaircraft.com/105-yakrobatics-namur-belgium/#comments
http://www.yak52.fr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18:janie&catid=29:the-cms&Itemid=38
Of course, I have attached a few pics [Arrow]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348286#348286
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/flight_international_yak_52_issues_original_363.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/sdc10253_126.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/su_29__stupino_june_2005_121.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_6270_116.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/sanicole07_008_120.jpg
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List" target=_blank>http://whttp://forums.matrbsp; w.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/cont================
[quote][b]
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:28 am Post subject: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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Quote :
"What do you mean by "2 and 3,4,5" at the same time?
Couldn't you rephrase this in a more structured way, to the point, and without all these unnecesary details please ? "
Jochen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Jochen,
To the point :
If you are really serious about training in a structured way and practice upright FLAT SPIN and (!!) INVERTED flat spin
(if it is actually possible to consistently fly them in a CJ-6 - I doubt it),
please get in touch with an experienced Flight Instructor on type and he will teach you the maneuvers without all the unnecessary details.
Otherwise, just forget about "2 and 3, 4, 5" at the same time !
There is no need for you to know how to recover from a fully developped
INVERTED (!!!) flat spin if you do not intend to practice them on a regular basis.
It is NOT "required experience" to safely enjoy flying your CJ.
Kind Regards,
Etienne.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEp-WMjJdvw
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/129003L.html
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/129002L.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEp-WMjJdvw
___________________________________________________________
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jochen_p(at)rocketmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:55 am Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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Mr Verhellen,
The subject is serious enough for a clear and structured response.
I suppose that you know this subject very well, but instead of clarifying, you only added more confusion to the subject.
Of course flat spinning should not be exercised without proper instruction.
But that has already been made clear by knowledgeable people on this list.And only a fool would try this out without proper instruction.
Furthermore, your attitude is very pedantic: why should there be no need for someone to know how it works, even if that person does not intend to practice regularly?
Or is it to be treated like some kind of obscure magic, only to be known by the happy few?
Regards,
Jochen,
Vorarlsberg, Austria
From: Etienne Verhellen <janie(at)yak52.fr>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2011 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Etienne Verhellen" <janie(at)yak52.fr (janie(at)yak52.fr)>
Quote :
"What do you mean by "2 and 3,4,5" at the same time?
Couldn't you rephrase this in a more structured way, to the point, and without all these unnecesary details please ? "
Jochen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Jochen,
To the point :
If you are really serious about training in a structured way and practice upright FLAT SPIN and (!!) INVERTED flat spin [Exclamation]
(if it is actually possible to consistently fly them in a CJ-6 - I doubt it),
please get in touch with an experienced Flight Instructor on type and he will teach you the maneuvers without all the unnecessary details.
Otherwise, just forget about "2 and 3, 4, 5" at the same time !
There is no need for you to know how to recover from a fully developped
INVERTED (!!!) flat spin if you do not intend to practice them on a regular basis.
It is NOT "required experience" to safely enjoy flying your CJ.
Kind Regards,
Etienne.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEp-WMjJdvw
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/129003L.html
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/129002L.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEp-WMjJdvw
___________________________________________________________
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/view://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List" target=_blank>http://www.matroni-= -Matt Drall==========
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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Jochen,
I am really not in the mood to discuss this any longer.
Have just lost a friend in a Yak-52 accident this afternoon.
I don't give a damn if you think my attitude is pedantic.
I am willing to help if you are genuinely interested :
1. You come fly with me in Belgium OR
2. You invite me to fly with you in Austria
and I will share with you what I know about flying a Yak-52.
Flying is like a lot of things in life :
you can read and talk about it as much as you want, the only
way to learn is to practice the REAL THING.
I am so sad. I miss my buddy so much.
Regards,
Etienne.
janie(at)yak52.fr
+32 473 272 186.
(please leave a message if no reply)
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_________________
Yak-50 Display Pilot - Airshows - Яковлев Як-50
Yak-52 training anywhere - FI(A) Aerobatic Instructor - Specialised Yak-52.
https://www.yakoteam.com/
https://www.yakovlevs.com/the-team/pilots-and-crew/ |
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bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:15 pm Post subject: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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sorry to hear about your buddy etienne
hang in there
i like your comments and your added information regarding your enthusiasm for the yak
some people just dont get it
andres
From: Etienne Verhellen <janie(at)yak52.fr>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, August 2, 2011 3:40:46 PM
Subject: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Etienne Verhellen" <janie(at)yak52.fr (janie(at)yak52.fr)>
Jochen,
I am really not in the mood to discuss this any longer.
Have just lost a friend in a Yak-52 accident this afternoon.
I don't give a damn if you think my attitude is pedantic.
I am willing to help if you are genuinely interested :
1. You come fly with me in Belgium OR
2. You invite me to fly with you in Austria
and I will share with you what I know about flying a Yak-52.
Flying is like a lot of things in life :
you can read and talk about it as much as you want, the only
way to learn is to practice the REAL THING.
I am so sad. I miss my buddy so much.
Regards,
Etienne.
janie(at)yak52.fr (janie(at)yak52.fr)
+32 473 272 186.
(please leave a message if no reply)
--------
http://www.flyforfun.be/?q=yaks
http://www.planecheck.com/eu/index.asp?ent=dv&id=6711
http://www.airshowactionphotography.com/san07/page1.html
http://www.irishairpics.com/photo/1029467/L/Yakovlev-Yak-52/G-CBSS/Etienne-Verhellen/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348428#========================
[quote][b]
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: inverted flat spin CJ6 |
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Thank Andres. Really appreciated.
My buddy loved his Yak so much.
He was much more technically competent than me. Not difficult really.
He took his machine completed apart for a COMPLETE overhaul.
I was joking he would never get it back together and it would take
years. With the help of a great Lithuanian mechanic, he was flying
4 months later ...
My friend's girlfriend is devastated.
I cannot stop crying as I write this.
Good night Andres, Etienne.
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