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FlowScan Problems

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john.greenhalgh1(at)sky.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:02 am Post subject: FlowScan Problems

I'm still in the process of inital flight testing and now finding the

Flowscan always reads 0.0 on my Grand Rapids EIS.  All the connections

appear correct (previous project builder).  Just wondering if anyone

could suggest a way forward.



I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage

of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and

black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise as the power

cable is connected to the regulated 12 volt supply direct from the

EIS.



This may or may not be the probem but I'm now in the dark with solving

this puzzle.



Is there any way to check the output from the Flowscan white sensor wire?



I would welcome any suggestions.   Regards John

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:50 am Post subject: FlowScan Problems

On 08/06/2011 11:59 AM, John Greenhalgh wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage

 of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and

 black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise


	


If I recall correctly this sensor needs 5 Volts. If that is the case it

is not surprising that it drags the supply down to 10.6Volts. You might

have damaged the flowscan, but check to be sure what the required

voltage is, I hope for you that my memory is wrong.



Frans

jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:13 am Post subject: FlowScan Problems

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 08/06/2011 11:59 AM, John Greenhalgh wrote:

> I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage

> of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and

> black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise

>     

 If I recall correctly this sensor needs 5 Volts. If that is the case it

 is not surprising that it drags the supply down to 10.6Volts. You might

 have damaged the flowscan, but check to be sure what the required

 voltage is, I hope for you that my memory is wrong.

 Frans

At

http://www.floscan.com/html/blue/aviation.php

Floscan says:

*

Electrical Specifications:*

12 to 15 VDC between RED (+) wire and BLACK (-) wire.  30 to 50 mA at 12 

VDC.

*Signal Specifications:*

Open collector transistor output on WHITE wire.  Sensor will pull-down 

to 1.0 volt with 10-15K ohm pull-up resistor installed.

Jan de Jong

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: FlowScan Problems

John

there is also a regulated 5v supply from the EIS I forgot which pin it is but I can find out iof you need it

Graham

From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Saturday, 6 August, 2011 16:47:44

Subject: Re: FlowScan Problems



--> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>



On 08/06/2011 11:59 AM, John Greenhalgh wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage

 of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and

 black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise


	


If I recall correctly this sensor needs 5 Volts. If that is the case it

is not surprising that it drags the supply down to 10.6Volts. You might

have damaged the flowscan, but check to be sure what the required

voltage is, I hope for you tSearch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, gt; http://forums.matronics.com

_;                   -Matt Dralcontribution" =======



    

 [quote][b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: FlowScan Problems

On my diagram it says 4.8V on pin23.





Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:11:50 +0100

From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com

Subject: Re: FlowScan Problems

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com



   .ExternalClass DIV {;}  John

there is also a regulated 5v supply from the EIS I forgot which pin it is but I can find out iof you need it

Graham

From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Saturday, 6 August, 2011 16:47:44

Subject: Re: FlowScan Problems



--> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>



On 08/06/2011 11:59 AM, John Greenhalgh wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage

 of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and

 black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise


	


If I recall correctly this sensor needs 5 Volts. If that is the case it

is not surprising that it drags the supply down to 10.6Volts. You might

have damaged the flowscan, but check to be sure what the required

voltage is, I hope for you tSearch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, gt; http://forums.matronics.com

_;                   -Matt Dralcontribution" =======



    

 [quote]



 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:46 am Post subject: FlowScan Problems

On mine it is pin 25, my EIS is a 1998 model updated around 2003.

Graham

From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, 7 August, 2011 1:32:09

Subject: RE: FlowScan Problems



     On my diagram it says 4.8V on pin23.





Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:11:50 +0100

From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com

Subject: Re: FlowScan Problems

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com



    .ExternalClass DIV {}  John

there is also a regulated 5v supply from the EIS I forgot which pin it is but I can find out iof you need it

Graham

From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Saturday, 6 August, 2011 16:47:44

Subject: Re: FlowScan Problems



--> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>



On 08/06/2011 11:59 AM, John Greenhalgh wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage

 of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and

 black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise


	


If I recall correctly this sensor needs 5 Volts. If that is the case it

is not surprising that it drags the supply down to 10.6Volts. You might

have damaged the flowscan, but check to be sure what the required

voltage is, I hope for you tSearch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, gt; http://forums.matronics.com

_;                   -Matt Dralcontribution" =======



    

 [quote]


 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


http://www.matronics.com/con================


[b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:58 am Post subject: FlowScan Problems

Interesting. Mine is about the same vintage. For pin 25 it says :fuel flow input connects to white wire of Floscanmodel 201B sensor.





Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 10:43:07 +0100

From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com

Subject: Re: Europa-List: FlowScan Problems

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com



   .ExternalClass DIV {;}  On mine it is pin 25, my EIS is a 1998 model updated around 2003.

Graham

From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, 7 August, 2011 1:32:09

Subject: RE: FlowScan Problems



   .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}     On my diagram it says 4.8V on pin23.





Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:11:50 +0100

From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com

Subject: Re: FlowScan Problems

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com



    .ExternalClass DIV {;} John

there is also a regulated 5v supply from the EIS I forgot which pin it is but I can find out iof you need it

Graham

From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Saturday, 6 August, 2011 16:47:44

Subject: Re: FlowScan Problems



--> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>



On 08/06/2011 11:59 AM, John Greenhalgh wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have checked the ground and thats OK and then I checked the voltage

 of the power source at the connector to the sensor between the red and

 black wires and this was 10.6 volts which is a surprise


	


If I recall correctly this sensor needs 5 Volts. If that is the case it

is not surprising that it drags the supply down to 10.6Volts. You might

have damaged the flowscan, but check to be sure what the required

voltage is, I hope for you tSearch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, gt; http://forums.matronics.com

_;                   -Matt Dralcontribution" =======



    

 [quote]



 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



http://www.matronics.com/con================







 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: FlowScan Problems

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  John,

 It sounds like you need to look at your model as well as wire chasing  the EIS/flow scan hookups, as others have so expertly given you advise  for.  There are different variations for the GRT EIS and differences in the  wiring.

  

 EASY WAY:  Send the unit to GRT and tell Sandy what you want.   She'll set up the unit and send the proper wiring diagrams to suit your  situation.  The flow scan sensor itself is very trustworthy and I doubt it  is the problem.  However if that is your only problem don't stop flying, as  FF is a nice to have.

  

 HARDER WAY.

 Model 2000 is wired differently than Model 4000.  The older 4000  models had to be modified for dual fuel flow.  Model 2000 and early 4000  were set up for single fuel flow.  So power up and find out what version  you have.  The 2000 is ideal for the 912 but not the 914.

  

 Get to know what version you have and study the manuals.  The single  fuel flow is OK for the 912/912S, and the 914 needs to have the dual fuel flow  EIS 4000 mod.  Sandy at GRT can send you the wiring schematic/manuals if  that is all you need.

  

 Attached is an .xlsx file which is my standard wiring hookup for GRT  EIS dual fuel flow on the Model 4000 for a 914 and it works.

 Also attached is the model 2000 wiring hookup from a subie I did years ago,  note it is significantly different.  I haven't done a 2000 in 10  years (I get them converted) so I am a bit rusty, but I know that for under  $400 the Model 2000 can be upgraded to a 4000 the way you want it if you need  dual fuel flow or desire additional Aux inputs.  

  

 It sounds as if you were not supplied with the manuals from the panel  builder, so have Sandy email them to you.  Hook up is a piece of cake, just  follow the schematic. 

  

 When you call GRT, be sure to explain your particular setup and version,  and they will give the the necessary recommendations and offer  recommendations, If you send the EIS to them, they'll have the techs set it  up for you.  Then it is just plug and play, (after you do the setup  / calibration procedures in the manual for proper reading of the fuel flow,  of course).

  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly

 [quote]   ---

EIS_Con_A_25_Pin_Kundel.xlsx

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kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: FlowScan Problems

Hi Bud,



If I read you correctly, the 2000 would give me fuel flow with just one Floscan ? I have a 912s.

Karl





From: budyerly(at)msn.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: FlowScan Problems

Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 16:13:54 -0400



           John,

 It sounds like you need to look at your model as well as wire chasing  the EIS/flow scan hookups, as others have so expertly given you advise  for.  There are different variations for the GRT EIS and differences in the  wiring.

  

 EASY WAY:  Send the unit to GRT and tell Sandy what you want.   She'll set up the unit and send the proper wiring diagrams to suit your  situation.  The flow scan sensor itself is very trustworthy and I doubt it  is the problem.  However if that is your only problem don't stop flying, as  FF is a nice to have.

  

 HARDER WAY.

 Model 2000 is wired differently than Model 4000.  The older 4000  models had to be modified for dual fuel flow.  Model 2000 and early 4000  were set up for single fuel flow.  So power up and find out what version  you have.  The 2000 is ideal for the 912 but not the 914.

  

 Get to know what version you have and study the manuals.  The single  fuel flow is OK for the 912/912S, and the 914 needs to have the dual fuel flow  EIS 4000 mod.  Sandy at GRT can send you the wiring schematic/manuals if  that is all you need.

  

 Attached is an .xlsx file which is my standard wiring hookup for GRT  EIS dual fuel flow on the Model 4000 for a 914 and it works.

 Also attached is the model 2000 wiring hookup from a subie I did years ago,  note it is significantly different.  I haven't done a 2000 in 10  years (I get them converted) so I am a bit rusty, but I know that for under  $400 the Model 2000 can be upgraded to a 4000 the way you want it if you need  dual fuel flow or desire additional Aux inputs.  

  

 It sounds as if you were not supplied with the manuals from the panel  builder, so have Sandy email them to you.  Hook up is a piece of cake, just  follow the schematic. 

  

 When you call GRT, be sure to explain your particular setup and version,  and they will give the the necessary recommendations and offer  recommendations, If you send the EIS to them, they'll have the techs set it  up for you.  Then it is just plug and play, (after you do the setup  / calibration procedures in the manual for proper reading of the fuel flow,  of course).

  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly

 [quote]   ---

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:04 pm Post subject: FlowScan Problems

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Yes,

 The EIS 2000 will work with the supplied GRT fuel flow  option.  If you add on the fuel flow after purchase, the unit should  only need to be programmed (really easy) and on the very old EIS  2000 units, it may need to go back to GRT for upgrade.     

  

 My particular experience was installing a GRT 2000 (purchased as a two  stroke unit by accident, i.e. it was cheaper) bought in 1999.  I then  hooked up the customers supplied Floscan senders.  I couldn't get it to  work.  I then called GRT and found, the model I had needed to be  upgraded for $375 (new wiring inside), so I sent it to them and had them upgrade  the 2000 to a 4000 for a couple bucks more, and on return, it worked right out  of the box after a one week turn around.

  

 Again, Grand Rapids is the expert on the 2000 models years, programming and  setup.  I just know it will work fine with one Floscan on a 912S (where the  small amount of fuel through the return line with orifice is not counted) when  ordered direct from GRT with the fuel flow option.  The 2000 is quite a  deal price wise, and is fine for the basic 912S.  However, it does not  have all  the capabilities of the 4000.

  

 Regards,

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:12 pm Post subject: FlowScan Problems

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Svein,

 I am just a dumb builder who has learned the hard way and only knows what  has worked in my shop.  And like you guys, with no time to work on my  own projects.

  You can never beat an Electronics International flow meter system.  I  have one, and it is superb.  No adjustments right out of the box.

  

 Regarding the flow of the return:

 I did a bench check of the FS02 return line years ago and found that is  flows at 4 oz per minute so about two gallons per hour at a pressure of about 2  PSI with a full tank (as the head pressure resists the return).  Non  scientific measuring cups and hoses used.  In fact it was practically Rube  Goldberg at its best.

  

 There is no way to get a single FF sender to be accurate over all power  ranges but you can get pretty darned close.  



 My experience with the setup of a single FF sender on a 912 engine  with only a single fuel flow sensor and a restricted return is as follows:

 GRT has the fuel flow instruction in their manual starting in section 7.5  for the EIS.

 What I do in the shop is the following:

 I disconnect the fuel line from the engine, and use a hose extension  draining into a gallon can with a valve to also check the fuel pressure.

 Like you, I set it up initially only checking the flow out of the main line  and verify the accuracy and adjust as necessary according to the manual.   Usually it is pretty good...

 I then hook the fuel lines back up.

  

 I run the pump with engine off and the return line disconnected and measure  the flow rate.  With no other restrictions other than fuel in the tank and  the FS02, it is just about three-four gallons per hour.

 One method I tried was to run the engine and measure the return, the  tee pressure should be about 3-4 PSI and the return past the FSO2 installed in a  tightly fitting1/4 inch fuel line, drops the return flow by about half.   But running engines on the ground and dripping fuel around is stupid, so I don't  do that any more.

 The GRT manual has you adjust from flight experience the FLOCAL up  until your flow is more accurate, if I recall it is a value between  100-150.

 What the GRT folks told me to do was to note your fuel burn in flight via  fill up and stopwatch to get your approximate fuel flow as it is much safer  without fuel lines and props turning on the ground...

 Simply increase the FLOCAL and fly again to check it out.  Adjusting  as you go, and adjusting, and adjusting, and adjusting.

 Being a lazy old guy, I fly during test at cruise power and set the FLOCAL  until I get about 5.5 GPH at about 3000 MSL and 5000 RPM at 20-25  inches MP.   

 Then adjust while enjoying cross country flights.

  

 For those with two flow meters, I have found the GRT 4000 with FF return to  work as advertised.  As accurate as the EI system I have.

  

 I, like you Svein, am spoiled by my Electronics International Flowscan, it  is a great piece of equipment, and I am glad to see other manufacturers now  making similar equipment that is less tedious than  the GRT above.

  

 Regards,

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

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