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Maximum All Up Weights

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steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:35 am Post subject: Maximum All Up Weights

Dear Europa Owners

 The Europa Club has been asked to look at the  possibility of obtaining an increase in the Max All Up Weight (Max take off  Weight) for the fleet of Europas according to the regulations applied by the  British Light Aircraft Association. 

 The current MAUWs are 1300lbs (591kgs) for the  classic without the tie bar modification and 1370 lbs (622kgs) with the XS and  other modified Classic kits.

 It is already known that different countries have  applied different MAUWs to their local kits (eg Canada, USA, Norway, New  Zealand) so we have practical experience and useage at these higher  weights.

  

 In order to progress this initiative the Club needs  to build a database of which kits have been approved at the higher weights (and  what has been approved), what the empty weight is and how many flight hours  have been flown. It would also be useful to have an indication of any changes to  the Centre of Gravity as applied to the aircraft and what typical loads are  carried. This may include has the baggage bay allowance been increased from the  80 lbs included in the standard XS kit (this may particularly apply to those of  you using the monowheel additional fuel tank in the wheelwell reserved for the  trigear) or does the increased MAUW allow for heavier pilot/co-pilot or  increased empty weight?

 Below is the information that I would appreciate  receiving on behalf of the club. To make my life slightly simpler can I ask that  those owners in the Southern Hemisphere please send the details to our  Antipodean Representative Tim Ward (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)) , whilst those in  Holland and Northern European Countries please send to Tim Weert (tim.weert(at)xs4all.nl (tim.weert(at)xs4all.nl)) and for those in  Belgium/France and Southern European Countries please send to Remi Guerner (air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)).

 Any American and Canadian owners can send their  details direct to me please as well as any areas of the world not specifically  mentioned.



                                                                                                                         loading                       Aircraft        Registration          Kit        number          Hours        flown          Empty        weight          Max All up        Weight          Centre of Gravity        limits          baggage     typical        pilot/pax     fuel                 any other comments (please indicate        whether kgs or lbs)    Type (tri,                                                                                                                                                                        mono,                                                                                                                                                             Motorglider)

        



  

 I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in  anticipation of your help with this venture.

  

 Regards

 Steve Pitt

 Chairman Europa Club

 G-SMDH Trigear XS

   [quote][b]

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 797

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Maximum All Up Weights

Hi Steve



As far as flying with a higher than 1370 AUW and adjustments to CG here is some info I uploaded to the gallery from Nev and Andy:



Andy:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=89065



Nev:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=89068



Here is my album on load testing:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=86987



I spoke to a few pilots with Monowheels and 914/Airmaster flying well over 1500 Lbs, even at aft CG stated in the manual for 1370 and they said the plane flies OK, but doggier acceleration and climb but still acceptable. Andy and Nev said the undercarriage of the monowheel is the weak link (and of course you are eating into your reserve airframe strength). If your plan is to take off (at) 1550 and burn fuel before landing, if you have a power failure after take off, good luck. One thing keep in mind as far as maneuvering speed goes, a higher weight increases the maneuvering speed (as far as the wings go anyway). 

Andy spoke of moving the CG ~ 1" forward of aft and ~ 1" aft of forward (I am going by memory, please read document closely to verify) if flying at 1450 AUW.

I spoke to someone who spoke to the test pilot when test flying was being conducted of the Europa and flying with a more aft CG at 1370 AUW was very recoverable from a multi turn spin, but it spun up like a maple leaf and it was deemed a bad idea to allow a pilot with average skills to ever experience a spin of that nature and have the ability and skills for an effortlessly recovery. 

If you ever have an official flight test routine performed on a Europa, I for one would be very interested in seeing how a XS recovers from a multi turn spin recovery at 1450 with an aft CG as stated for 1370 lbs.

The same goes for the glider wing. From what I understand Europa has a video of glider wing test flying and spin recovery. Several times my request for a copy was never complied with. Perhaps you may get better results and post on the Europa club website?

I spoke with someone that said they talked with a pilot flying at either 1450 or higher AUW on a trigear XS with quite a bit aft of allowable 1370 CG and it was quickly discovered when landing that quite a bit of forward pressure was needed on the stick at the flare, hence he would never fly in such a configuration again. 

I will just mention that for Glider wings, without modification to spar (but only after inspection as per SB) you can only fly slow and light. To fly faster and heavier, a spar mod and front lift pin socket mod must be performed. Info can be found on Europa's website, or I posted at the bottom of my Glider Information Gallery, SB 17, SB 18 and MOD 78. The lower ones are the latest and greatest as per today:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81907

My input finished.

Ron Parigoris

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steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: Maximum All Up Weights

Ron,

Thanks for the immediate response and detail.

I will store this with the rest of the information I am already compiling.

Regards

Steve

---

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Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:34 am Post subject: Re: Maximum All Up Weights

Hi Steve,



A few comments:



1. Regarding max take off weight: French registered homebuilts which are built from a kit are not allowed to deviate from max weights specified by the kit manufacturer. So there is no way we could exceed the 1370 lbs max weight of the XS, unless the Factory (not the LAA) publish a relevant technical bulletin and gets the weight increase approved by our DGAC.

2. Regarding max baggage load: the 80 lbs is questionable. Is it just an indication for those who do not want to make the balance calculation or is there an actual structural reason?

In my XS mono with my wife as a passenger and full fuel, I can load up to 60 kgs (130 lbs) of bags before exceeding the aft limit and still being below 1370 lbs. 

3. Baggage arm: according to the XS manual, the arm for baggage is 88 inches. In my opinion this figure is wrong. I consider the right arm to be around 94 inches and does all my balance calculations using this figure.  

4. Long range fuel tank:  with the long range tank full (mine takes 38 liters) I can still load up to 30 kgs (80 lbs) of bags before exceeding the weight or balance limits. Obviously fuel is not baggage, so I consider I am still legal doing this, as I do not exceed the specified max baggage load.     



I will pass over to you other comments I eventually collect.



Cheers

Remi

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Martin Olliver

Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 35

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Maximum All Up Weights

Hi Steve. I have a wing jig if required to test any Europa wings. Might help in your quest. I don't live far from you.

Best wishes

Martin G-IVES

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petros

Joined: 29 Aug 2011
Posts: 2
Location: UK

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Maximum All Up Weights

Greetings,

               My aircraft is G-DEBR a Trigear, kit 232, 120 hrs. flown, 874.5 lbs. empty, max wt. 1370 lbs, C of G limits 58 to 62.5 inches, max baggage 80lbs., typical load 1185 lbs. and max wt. flown occasionally 1365 lbs.

Hope this helps, 

                    Peter

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