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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w |
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I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit
disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s.
When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking
power I'd like to have.
Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first
compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it
cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first
compression stroke.
At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear
battery for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but
found the same situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out
for the same reason.
If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but
again, unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a
re-boot of the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery.
At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to
include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic
interchange capability I was after.
I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning
something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more
background....
My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG
cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable
carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded
close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I
followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely.
What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel
on one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second
battery capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together
providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries.
Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had
to compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or
conserving power for a start.
What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible
(Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible.
So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master
or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like
the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the
batteries for a start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation
on the GRT HX display while it re-booted.
So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice
on a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter
will fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot),
interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount.
Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson
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johnciolino(at)comcast.ne
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w |
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I am having the same problem with my RV-8. PC680 is mounted in the right
foot well just behind the firewall and connected by #2 welding cable to the
starter solenoid and then to the starter. I have checked the connections to
make sure they are tight (and they are). I am perplexed. If you find a
solution please share.
John Ciolino
RV-8
N894Y
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berkut13(at)berkut13.com
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:19 pm Post subject: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w |
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I bet you a dollar both of you are using a permanent magnet starters. I've
had the same issue when I used one, even with #2AWG cable through out.
My easy solution was to replace the starter with a field wound unit - a B&C
starter in my case.
Poof! Problem gone...and now the engine spins faster and doesn't have any
problem making it over the first blade.
-James
Berkut/Race13
www.berkut13.com
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tomhanaway
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Murphy, NC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w |
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Bill,
First of all congratulations on finishing the paint and getting Tigressa
flying.
I've attached a link from Sky-Tec that walks through trouble shooting. My
original engine (Lycoming io-540 through Van's) came with a lightweight LS
starter as stock. I called Lycoming and had the starter switched to the NL
inline unit. Per the info page, Sky-Tec starters require a minimum of 10v
at starter to work consistently.
http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm
Again congrats on the achievement.
Tom Hanaway
RV-10
Boynton Beach
As always, consider the source as I'm finishing prep work prior to painting
and am still on the ground :^)
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_________________
RV-10. Built and sold
RV-8a. Building |
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV- |
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Try running a #0 ga wire external along with a dedicated ground just for a test start. Even a long set of jumper cables ran parallel can tell you we have wire size issues.
Our #2 ga is too small for the log run and current draw. Since Van recommended that is what I have and it would be alot of work to change now. After almost finished I have modified most of Vans shortcomings, but not this one.
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Wayne G. |
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rleffler
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV- |
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I sent an email off to Vans, Lycoming, and Sky-Tec requesting clarification on Sky-Tec's recommendation to use the 149-NL over the Vans/Lycoming supplied 149-12LS.. The following is the response that I received from Rich at Sky-Tec. I have his permission to re-post his email. He doesn't participate in the forums, but welcomes anyone to communicate directly with him via email or telephone.
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: richc(at)skytecair.com [mailto:richc(at)skytecair.com]
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 10:09 AM
To: Bob Leffler;
Subject: Re: Skytec Starter
Bob,
This is important dialogue. We (Sky-Tec) have been completely unsuccessful getting vans customers the ability to receive the 149-NL on their rv-10 540 purchases. It would be nice for something to break the log jam.
The 149-LS works well on van's factory 10 (and many other 54 applications through the years) and that keeps some content with its ongoing use and recommendation. But in the field, others aren't able to get their electrical systems capable of delivering the additional current the LS requires to provide the "Sky-Tec start" we all know, love and expect from our 540 engines.
I am growing a bit "over accustomed" shall we say to providing those no charge swap outs. But we will continue since we owe so much of our success to date to the very parties involved: Lycoming, vans, and the experimental builders.
If anybody wants a good deal on some swapped out 149-12LS starters, let me know ; ) I can't sell them as new and must rebuild them to satiate FAA requirements.
In the meantime, keep those swap requests coming and please keep asking vans and Lycoming to kindly consider an empl change for rv-10 540 engine builds.
Best,
Rich
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Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler |
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV- |
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Bob,
Same info I got from skytec when planning eng order through Van's. Lycoming told me to swap it out after I received engine. I already had #2 ga wire ran. I have PC925 main and PC680 aux bat both in the back. What I noticed with cert planes/IO-540 is that they had 35 aH bat.
So, I believe it is a combination of inadequate bat and wire size for the long run to the front. I will see how my 925 starts it and change if I need to then. I can combine bat for 43 aH during cold wx if needed.
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Wayne G. |
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